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Chapter 1: The Prince
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Key



Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 2614
Location: The Royal Palace

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:04 pm    Post subject: Chapter 1: The Prince  

The first chapter of the featured storygame "The Twin Prince" has been posted:

Chapter 1: The Prince

Discussion and voting are complete for chapter 1.

For more about the storygame, see the New Players Start Here topic in this forum.
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Chinaren



Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 8783
Location: http://www.NeilHartleyBooks.com

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:12 pm    Post subject:  

Ooh! First post!

One slight niggle. You can't cut and paste from the SGame. :?


Quote: ...let the smells reach you from the Inward wind you can smell the salt...

A repeat there, maybe 'aroma' would be better for one of them.

Ag, have to go suddenly. More later...
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Argonaut



Joined: 11 May 2006
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Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:42 pm    Post subject:  

great start on another Wheel story. It's sure to be very cool.

Knowledge is the way to go, when your empire faces some disaster that can't be solved by you stabbing someone, all you'll know is seven different ways to kick yourself for not learning something usefull. I mean, you want to learn how the economy actually works, or how to use the nunchucks?
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Phang



Joined: 19 Sep 2004
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Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:29 pm    Post subject:  

Mummy, the nasty thing with the red eyes keeps staring at me! *hides*


Well I was still deciding, but Argo's convinced me for now.
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Smee



Joined: 16 Oct 2004
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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:45 am    Post subject:  

"Father has made his intentions clear, but did he have such a division in his training? Did he grow up with only the warriors blade? I suspect not. He has always demonstrated the knowledge too. Yet he still believes I should choose Kranathos.

Kranathos has given me a good base with the sword and I have my training rituals too.

With knowledge I can become a true leader, a true Emperor - capable of perceiving the..subtleties in each situation as Rene has begun to show me.

If the day comes, and I feel a lack in what I know, then I can choose to further my warrior skills at my own order as Emperor."
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Shady Stoat



Joined: 02 Oct 2005
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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:42 am    Post subject:  

Interesting opener. I was hoping to hear more about the twins soon :)

The choice is between being a warrior and being a scholar. It's also about showing his father that he's ready for adult decisions and leadership responsibility.

Personally, I think there's more to this choice than meets the eye. It seems a needlessly irrational way of looking at the concept of his son's tuition. However, I have no idea what test has been devised by this line of reasoning, so I'm just going to go with what makes sense.

If the Prince picks scholarship and philosophy, three things will happen.

1) His physical tutor will be sent away, leaving him with no means of increasing his skill in sword and steel.

2) His father will be angry and disillusioned with him. This choice is barely a choice at all, as far as he is concerned, just a way for his son to prove that he has sense - or not.

3) The Prince's new learning will carry him away from his father, ideaologically speaking. Ambitious people will notice the rift and deepen it. A family divided will become a kingdom divided, we may even be talking civil war as a consequence.

If he decides to take the warrior's way, points 2 and 3 will be reversed. His father will be happy with him. He may, in time, even be prepared to relax the restriction and give the Prince some say in how he is tutored and what duties he decides to take on in preparation for his own kingship. The people (presumably of the same military bent as his father) will respect the person that he is growing to be, and he is likely to have less trouble ruling them when that time comes.

and Rene will disappear from his life.

However, while a warrior cannot learn to be a better warrior on his own and without training, ANYONE can learn to educate themselves.

There must be libraries. Scholars to talk to and learn from. Empirical experiments that can be researched and wisdom gleaned from them. This may not be as effective a method of learning as from Rene, but an enthusiastic pupil can take on scholarly pursuits with no external influences.

Therefore, to get the best out of the deal, and work his father into listening to reason over a period of time, he should accept the warrior's way, for now.
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LordoftheNight



Joined: 11 Aug 2005
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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:08 am    Post subject:  

But, even if the bullroarer is sent away, is doesn't mean he won't be able to work on improving his physique. He could still train with the guards, even if it's not his focus.
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The Powers That Be



Joined: 19 May 2005
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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:59 am    Post subject:  

Shady Stoat wrote: It seems a needlessly irrational way of looking at the concept of his son's tuition.

That's what struck me. I'm trying to imagine why the emperor would want to limit his heir, and I can't come up with a single reason. Well, I guess the emperor could be trying to sabotage him, but it doesn't seem that way. In the end, the emperor comes off as looking pretty stupid. I assume, as Stoat suggests, that there's more to this than meets the eye.

I have to go with Rene here. The description of Kranathos' training is purely focused on weapons and fighting - I note that he doesn't mention military strategy at all (which is a far more useful skill for an emperor). He can get this studying with Rene, I would think.

BTW, to echo Chinaren: there are a number of errors in the text, but it's difficult to address them when I can't cut and paste.
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Key



Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:27 pm    Post subject:  

Text should be selectable now.
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LordoftheNight



Joined: 11 Aug 2005
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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:46 pm    Post subject:  

That's better - cheers Key.
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The Powers That Be



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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:09 pm    Post subject:  

Quote: It's dawn, and you wake before the slave begins tapping at your door. The noise of his feet padding along the stones was enough to pull you from sleep.

You hate Kranathos for instituting this regime; every day, nearly a half hour of work when all you want to do was fall back to sleep.
A couple tense lapses. If 'wake' is present tense, then it needs to be 'is' in the second sentence. And "all you want to do is..." in the last sentence.
Quote: You don't understand the source of the fire in his belly, the need for you to be in perfect physical condition. - you do nothing.
Lose the period after 'condition'.
Quote: You take a few more steps into the room. You hear a scraping sound then, slight but audible, like metal against stone. You move in. Behind the great fireplace there is more space, as well as another open area with a large desk where your father sometimes conducts business. The scraping came from there.
I think 'comes' is better in the last sentence, unless you say earlier that the scraping stops.
Quote: You run back to the front of the room and call out, "Father?" just as he comes around the from behind the fireplace.
Typo.
Quote: There has been clues
have.
Quote: "Yes," he says. "Yes. Think on that. You cannot argue when dead - or, at the very least, you can only make one argument: 'I am dead!'
Either 'at the most' or 'at best' here - 'at the least' is the wrong expression in this case.

That's all I have for now.
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LordoftheNight



Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 5260
Location: Hell

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:41 pm    Post subject:  

Quote: Most often he would be standing before the flames, hands clasped behind his back.

Most often sounds wrong. 'More often than not' prehaps, or a simple 'normally'.
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Key



Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:45 pm    Post subject:  

Thanks. Fixed.

Must have been tired, to miss all those. :oops:
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dinranwen
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:24 am    Post subject:  

Why would an emperor limit his heir?

Very, Very simple. If I am correc, this story could be set against a simalar background of ancient Rome, Greece, or even Arabia. Back then son's did not often wait for their father to die naturally before trying to gain the thrown. In fact, more often than not, the Father and the King would die at the hands of his son and heir. So by limiting his son to one tuitor, the emperor will be able to discern his true heart.

Something tells me that a long time ago, the Emperor was offered the same choice by his father, and that same intution tells me that the Emperor chose force over knowledge. If his son choses likewise, the father will know his son is a man after his own heart, however despite some of said here, I don't think the Emperor will be happy with this choice, at least not completly.

To chose force, would be like sending a challenge to the Emperor, it would be like saying "One day I will want to kill you and take what is rightful mine, and on that day I will need the strength and skill to do so." To chose force may appease his father for a time, but soon or later the emperor will relize the threat that the growing warrior and heir is becoming. I don't think the Emperor is a man to live with such a threat. There may be safety in this choice shorterm, but in the long run there will be more dangerous. Besides like The Powers that Be said, "The description of Kranathos' training is purely focused on weapons and fighting - I note that he doesn't mention military strategy at all".

On the other hand, to chose knowledge is also dangerous. Obviously the emperor will not be happy with his son if he choices this path, that much is clear. However, the emperor is much less likely to be threaten by a scholar than by a warrior. The emperor sees knowledge as a weakeness, and in that fact may lie the princes strength. Besides the prince has already recieved, from what I seen, considerable training at the hands of Kranthos. Add to this strength and parctial skill, knowledge, cunning and tactics, and you will have a threat that Emperor never saw coming.

Besides, to become a true king, as you said in the story, one needs understanding not brute strength. What's the use of strength when you are surronded, out numbered, and no way out except your strength and cunning? Strength would be of little use in that situation, but cunning could perhaps save the day. Besides, something tells me, the prince will need all the cunning he can get to defeat the man his father has become.

Therfore, go with Rene and knowledge.

"Strength is not in the greatness of a man, but in the greatness of his mind."
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Argonaut
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:14 am    Post subject:  

Shady Stoat wrote: However, while a warrior cannot learn to be a better warrior on his own and without training, ANYONE can learn to educate themselves.

what what what!?!?! I would think the opposite to be true :)
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Nuclear Rage
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:15 pm    Post subject:  

I think the prince should argue with the father and convince him to allow him to continue with both. Either that or choose weapon training to make the story a good hack and slash tale.
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Shogun
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:30 pm    Post subject:  

Very nice idea, Key. Very nice. You combined some of your stories in the world. Bullroars and sheepshead, I loved that one. Rebellion is always a good starter.

I. being a fighter, would chose Kranathos. Unless Rene can teach you magic, swords can make a better differnce then words, for sword can silence them.
I doubt that he would train in fighting if he chooses knowledge, Lordy. Rene seems to be a bit possessive and will most likely coup him in a room full of scrolls to learn.

Plus, they are guards. Not weapon masters like the bullroar.

Say an assassin comes in the night, he will be able to handle it by himself, but if he chooses knowledge and only ha a little credebility in fighting, he will either die or the guards will have to cover him.
The more he will learn, he may become stronger in mind, but the people might sense he is weak in that stature and enemies will decided to use...physical politics to bring him down.

Would you just want to know about your land, but no be able to defend it. Or be able to Defend you land and have someone close to advise on the land. What are advisors for? Advising.

On the other hand Smee it could go the other away around for force. He could base it on weapon and such and when he becomes emporer, start to learn.

I choose FORCE.
The story won't be as good with the main character being a little wuss in battle and having it center on politics or having the generals doing all the work.
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JezSharp
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:48 am    Post subject:  

It is certainly a strange choice for a King to give his son - although the fact that the scholar Renal suggested that alternation of studies would be less productive for the young prince was strange - why would alternation of studies debenefit him in particular?

Picking up on what Shogun said:
Quote: Would you just want to know about your land, but no be able to defend it. Or be able to Defend you land and have someone close to advise on the land. What are advisors for? Advising.

Why is it necessary for the future King to defend his kingdom...doesn't he have an army with experienced generals to do that? Surely it's more important that he understands what is actually happening in all aspects of the Kingdom so that he may be able to spot incoming dangers before they happen.

Secondly of course advisors are for advising but if the future King has little idea of what they are talking about then their advice could well be used for their own personal gain. Effectively the advisors would in a sense become the actual rulers with a puppet King at the head.

Clearly he has three options Force, Knowledge or both. The choice between force and knowledge was dealt with well by dinranwen's post. The third and more interesting option is that the Prince avoids the choice - either by flatly refusing and demanding both or by running away. By flatly refusing the Prince will be in direct conflict with his father which will lead to either i) his father choosing for him - to which he must accept the choice or run away or ii) his father accepting the Princes demands - unlikely as he'd be seen as weak or iii) his father challenging him to a duel - slightly extreme but then knowing little about the King and the Kingdom he may just see the Priince's challenge here as a direct challenge for the throne.

Finally if he runs he'll obviously miss out on both forms of training, probably be rejected by his father and hunted down. However he could start a new life as a civilian which would give him a new experience/perspective of life in the Kingdom or become a traveller in the land. Both slightly different paths for the story to potentially go down.
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Smee
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:21 am    Post subject:  

Welcome to the City Jez - good arguements, well stated :)


Happy Playing :)
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JezSharp
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:33 am    Post subject:  

Thanks Smee, glad to be a part of it :)
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Chinaren
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:41 am    Post subject:  

Indeed, welcome to IF JS! Hope you hang around and read some other* SGames. Well structured comments are always welcome!

:D

*Okay, mine.
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Shogun
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:44 am    Post subject:  

:D
Welcome, Jez! I stand corrected...I think he should run away, would make it more interesting.
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Key
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:29 pm    Post subject:  

OK, thanks for the suggestions. Poll's up!

:-)
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Smee
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:21 pm    Post subject:  

Alot of well framed comments for each option - this is going to take some thought.

How long is the poll up for?
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Kalanna Rai
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:07 pm    Post subject:  

Picked to continue studying with Rene. Simple reason...you've been training with both all your life. You should be proficent enough with a blade to keep yourself alive in basic combat and, if you continue to aquire knowledge and subtilty, you could eventually mount an argument that you need your split studies back...

Or just pick them up at a later time or continue to study in secret. Personally I'd rather have knowledge on my side if I'm cast out in the world...a scribe can make more money than a sell sword, an informant more money than a thug...think about it.
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JezSharp
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:35 pm    Post subject:  

Yep I'd go along with Rene and knowledge too. Running away would be a fun alternative :) , but now is not the right time for him to do it as he very little knowledge of the world around him. Refusing to choose would also lead to a list of problems for him so probably not the best choice. With the choice between Force and Knowledge in this situation it has to be Knowledge. The future King needs to know how to run his kingdom and how to manage the threats within it. As dinranwen said:

Quote: "Strength is not in the greatness of a man, but in the greatness of his mind."

so I'm going to go with Rene and knowledge.
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dinranwen
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Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:40 am    Post subject:  

Voted for Rene...and winning. As for my reasons, let's not go over that again.

However, I do think it would be interesting to have the prince, either A.) Challenge His Father or B.) Run away. Nevertheless, I agree JezSharp, the prince is neither experience or wise enough for such a thing at this time. Perhaps later as both the story, and the prince grows.
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DarkeFlyte
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Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:58 am    Post subject: Alright!  

This is awesome! I like this story...hmmmm, I would like fighting but why not do both...hmmmmmm
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Key
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Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:51 am    Post subject:  

Poll is up until Thursday night Pacific time (which is early Friday morning for you Brits).

:-)
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The Powers That Be
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Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:30 pm    Post subject:  

Running away was tempting, but I decided against avoiding/escaping the conflict and chose Rene.
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Mordok
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Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:24 pm    Post subject:  

Another good one. What to do? Hrmmmmmmm?

I went with refuse to choose. A wise person would know that both trainings, working together would be a far better choice than either one by itself.

A sword can silence a good argument, but a good speaker can inspire armies.

Plus it would show our father that we are smart enough to think for ourselves.
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Key
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Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:49 pm    Post subject:  

Thanks everyone! The poll has closed, the vote was to choose Rene, and knowledge.

A new chapter will be posted in two days.

:-)
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BStheGreat
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Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:19 am    Post subject:  

Im slowly starting to read the chapter, but I am only reading it in bits and pieces at a time. I'm not a big fan of 2nd person, it's kinda like a pet peeve of mine. But I should be done with the first chapter eventually.
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DarkeFlyte
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Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:24 pm    Post subject:  

The point I'm worried about is that there's not going to be much actionn. Were not going to spen the next five chapters reading about how we turned the books' pages...are we? lol
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The White Blacksmith
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Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:50 pm    Post subject:  

NOOOOO! How could you start a new Wheel while I was aw... Oh, yeah, I see, that's how.

Brilliant start and I'm glad Knowledge won. You could actually say that learning how to wield weapons is knowledge and therefore you weren't violating the rules, just bending them if you seek weapons training at the same time.
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Key
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Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:56 pm    Post subject:  

Locking this chapter, as chapter 2 is posted.
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