City of IF

[Chinaren]

Feel free to ask any questions here about my views or policies etc. in regards to the Mayoral elections.

Chia asked:

Why Chinaren and not Chia or someone* else?

I am not feeling particularly inspired at the moment, but...


Firstly I am a regular on IF, and I have no plans to stop anytime soon. :-o

I am already a mod on IF, so familiar with that side of things, and I have been mod and admin on other sites, forums etc for many years.

My background is IT, so there won't be anything in the Mayoral duties that will give me any problems.

Meaning no offence to the other candidates, I am a little** older, and have rather a lot of management experience behind me in RL, which can lend weight, or at least bulk, to the office.

As someone who has a lot of stories on IF, I can understand the writers POV. As someone who comments on a lot of stories on IF, I can understand the players POV.


*Actually she said something else, but I understood what she meant.
**Okay, possibly a lot older.

[D-Lotus]

You say you don't know where the city is going, that your only weapons are words to expand and help the city. It doesn't seem convincing to me. Nice speech, but what does it mean? What are you going to do about inflation? How are you going to be more than any average mayor? Our only guaranty is your reputation. What else can you offer?


Sorry, I had to do that. I haven't decided who to give my vote to. ;)

[Chinaren]

D-Lotus wrote: You say you don't know where the city is going, that your only weapons are words to expand and help the city. It doesn't seem convincing to me. Nice speech, but what does it mean?

I didn't say they were my only weapons! I said it is what IF is based upon.

For what it means, well, I think it is fairly self explanitory. My basic goal would be to focus on the writing and community spirit, whilst trying to help IF grow.

D-Lotus wrote: What are you going to do about inflation?

Glad you asked that question. I intend to get the Treasury paying out prizes for a start. Whilst I acknowledge this isn't going to solve the problem, it will start the 'road to recovery.'

It is a relatively simple thing that needs no modification to do, and we can start it immediately. This will limit the influx of new Fables coming into circulation. Of course it won't fix it, but it is a start, and we have to start somewhere.

I will review other ideas that have been put forward in the past as well. Ideally it would be nice to get the treasury paying out for everything, but this would need a lump sum put in to start, and more ways for money to flow back in.

D-Lotus wrote: How are you going to be more than any average mayor?

I hope to make sure the Mayoral duties are carried out in a fast and timely fashion.

There has also been some grumbling that the site has changed 'for the worse' lately. I want to listen to peoples complaints and see what we can do to rectify them where valid.

D-Lotus wrote: Our only guaranty is your reputation. What else can you offer?


I don't like to rely on reputation. I offer my exerience, my dedication to the site, my imagination and my time.

However, for all the promises, I am a firm believer in 'The Proof is in the Pudding.' In the end we can only see, and that goes for all the candidates.

[Smee]

Quote: Glad you asked that question. I intend to get the Treasury paying out prizes for a start. Whilst I acknowledge this isn't going to solve the problem, it will start the 'road to recovery.'

It already does that.

It doesn't look like it, because I can rarely be bothered to log into the treasury account, but I add fable on as prize and then deduct from treasury.

The crux of the inflation problem is getting everybody spending them on a regular basis.

At the moment the main 'status' of them is almost the same as post count - "I've got more than you" mentality. This needs to change to - I've got some fables - now what shall I spend them on.

Whether it's rewarding players for nice/helpful comments on your story, or rewarding an author for an entertaining chapter on your favourite storygame. That is an attitude that could see fables becoming a friendly and integral part of the city, rather than just another means of ranking.

The medals is a nice idea that sort of heads toward that (grins - although the money just passes to the Chinaren coffers) but atleast it's money movement. However, most people still prefer to cling to their fable stash.

Any ideas for encouraging such an attitude change Mr Ren?

[Chinaren]

Ah, well, glad that happens. :D

Quote: The medals is a nice idea that sort of heads toward that (grins - although the money just passes to the Chinaren coffers) but atleast it's money movement. However, most people still prefer to cling to their fable stash.

The money that is paid over when someone gets a medal is paid to the recipient, not me. Well, okay, I get a small cut (medals aren't cheap you know).

For example: A 50Fable medal costs 55, of which 50 goes to the person who gets the medal. 5 goes to Chinaren Medal Inc. for craftmanship costs. So if Solus bought a comment medal for Smudger, she would pay 55, of which 50 would go to Smudger, along with the medal of course.

Also bear in mind that nearly all of the medals so far given out have been by me, with the subsiquent outlay from my meagre remaining coins. :shock:

I introduced this in an independant way, off my own back, to try and get more Fable movement between players.

This is one of the ideas that I would be considering extending as Mayor.

I agree there needs to be more Fable movement, and welcome any and all ideas in this area.

[rlz]

Hey cren,

Just a couple questions...

About how many hours a week are you on IF, and are you willing to expand those hours to fulfill your duty as mayor?

If there is a problem between two people arguing, how would you solve it? (The problem got somewhat out of hand)

Doing good so far china. Grats, and good luck!

[Smudger]

Hey, I got mentioned!! And this is for Smee's comment on the whole " I got more than you" mentality. All the people I have spoken to have not said anything about it, in fact Someone gave me Fables, I quote "For the hell of it". People here are very nice. And if China can make this happen more then brilliant.

[Chinaren]

rlz wrote: Hey cren,

Just a couple questions...

About how many hours a week are you on IF, and are you willing to expand those hours to fulfill your duty as mayor?

I usually have IF on quite a lot, as my PC at home is never off, and I am in the office at work with it on as well. Both are inernet connected all the time. Hence in one sense I am on IF most of the time. Of course, that doen't mean I am paying attention all of the time. ;)

Basically it depends. Of course if I am busy I am on less, but I am on as much or more than anyone else! I don't believe I would have to increase my hours to carry out the Mayoral duties.

rlz wrote:
If there is a problem between two people arguing, how would you solve it? (The problem got somewhat out of hand)

I would hope I would notice before it got out of hand, but of course that wouldn't always be the case.

Problems come in so many forms I can't give a stock answer here Z. I would have to take each case on it's own merits. Each side would be given a fair hearing, and I would evaluate the arguments of both, as well as the bearing on IF, before taking action.

IF is home to many different beings, it is sometimes difficult to live in harmony, but I do believe most people here want to get on. In my year here I haven't seen anything that couldn't be resolved with some dialogue and common sense.

[dinranwen]

Here's a few questions:

Is there something, if anything, that you would radically change about the City of If, other than the things you have already mentioned?

You said that one way to stop inflation is to get people to spend more fables, or increase the flow of fables between hands, (or some other phrase like that). How do you plan on doing this?

I have been in the market place trying to figure out how to spend my well earned fables, but other than Argo (who isn't available for commisions right now), there are no 'serious' buisness that I feel are worth by hard earned fables. As mayor, would you encourage more 'serious' buisness, or do anything to help with the lack of good buisness in the market place?

A lot of Ifer's have a different interest other than writing, or they feel they can't write well. These interest might include let's say, Drawing, Music, Dancing, Art in General, Traditional Roleplaying, Reading in the pursiut of editing and enjoyment, Poetry, Song Writing, and I'm sure there are many others. Would you, if elected Mayor, encourage these 'side' interest in any way? If so, how?

[Chinaren]

DrRunWell wrote: Here's a few questions:

Is there something, if anything, that you would radically change about the City of If, other than the things you have already mentioned?

Hey Dinny! Nice to see you here and thank-you for your input.

No, I wouldn't want to rush in and make mass changes, but then that isn't the Mayors' job anyway, that is Kingky's :-) domain. I don't think I have said I would radically change anything anyway.

Not to say there are some things that may need tweaking of course, which would be open to debate. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that is in dire need of repair.

DrRunWell wrote: You said that one way to stop inflation is to get people to spend more fables, or increase the flow of fables between hands, (or some other phrase like that). How do you plan on doing this?
I have been in the market place trying to figure out how to spend my well earned fables, but other than Argo (who isn't available for commisions right now), there are no 'serious' buisness that I feel are worth by hard earned fables. As mayor, would you encourage more 'serious' buisness, or do anything to help with the lack of good buisness in the market place?

I said 'help reduce' inflation.

This chestnut has been bandied about lots already, especially in the last election. My suggestion was to have a kind of 'award' (medal) that you could buy and give to other players. I instigated this myself in the end, in the Marketplace and Chinaren Hall.

Any other ideas more than welcome!

DrRunWell wrote: A lot of Ifer's have a different interest other than writing, or they feel they can't write well. These interest might include let's say, Drawing, Music, Dancing, Art in General, Traditional Roleplaying, Reading in the pursiut of editing and enjoyment, Poetry, Song Writing, and I'm sure there are many others. Would you, if elected Mayor, encourage these 'side' interest in any way? If so, how?

There was quite a debate about this in the Council Hall, and the general concensus was that we should concentrate on StoryGaming, as that was the main aim of the site.

The outcome was that the other forums were sufficient to maintain the feeling of community, without detracting too much from the point of the site.

I tend to agree with this POV, though of course I am always willing to listen to others opinions.

At the end of the day I do think Key has the final say on this one, as it is a matter of site policy rather than Mayoral tasks. I haven't spoken to him directly on this issue.

[JezSharp]

Hmm...ok, I'm pretty convinced on most of your mandate China, except for the ideas on fables.

Having the treasury pay out to slow inflation is only a short term solution and doesn't really tackle the issue.

Quote: My suggestion was to have a kind of 'award' (medal) that you could buy and give to other players ...is that really going to be a popular way to spend fables...I can't see too many people taking this up :? And it won't affect inflation at all as 90% of the cost goes to another player and 10% to Chinaren Inc.

I'm tempted to suggest scrapping fables altogether and replacing them with award schemes (e.g editor awards for good editting each month etc.) as one idea. However if you're going to pursue the fable route I f5 din, you need to find some way for Ifians to lose fables (to the treasury who would then circulate out fables so that in the end a dynamic equilibrim is maintained) and so the influx of fables is halted.

I think the idea of branching out into other areas such as poetry would be a great direction for the site to go in...but only if it's done well! We need to get sg'ing right (which it is to a large extent) then create one at a time new areas of writing, probably along the same lines as the linear story comp with articles being submitted each month and judged - (clearly the linear story game forum needs sorting out atm but after that perhaps other forums along the same lines could appear).

One other suggestion is that for each sg that's promoted to a forum - it should have 2 threads, one for the Chapters and one for discussion so that for the people who come to read what's on offer don't have to trawl through pages of discussion (and thus improving the quality of the experience on the site).

[Chinaren]

JezSharp wrote: Hmm...ok, I'm pretty convinced on most of your mandate China, except for the ideas on fables.

Having the treasury pay out to slow inflation is only a short term solution and doesn't really tackle the issue.

Quote: My suggestion was to have a kind of 'award' (medal) that you could buy and give to other players ...is that really going to be a popular way to spend fables...I can't see too many people taking this up :? And it won't affect inflation at all as 90% of the cost goes to another player and 10% to Chinaren Inc.

Well, I only started this because the city didn't. If the City did it more would go into the Treasury.


JezSharp wrote: I'm tempted to suggest scrapping fables altogether and replacing them with award schemes (e.g editor awards for good editting each month etc.) as one idea. However if you're going to pursue the fable route I f5 din, you need to find some way for Ifians to lose fables (to the treasury who would then circulate out fables so that in the end a dynamic equilibrim is maintained) and so the influx of fables is halted.

We already have an award scheme I think, with SGotM. We tried player of the month as well, and now the PPP. They are high maintanance, and don't really seem to add much (except SGotM).

The idea of dropping Fables has been mooted ever since they were introduced, but I really don't think the inflation problem is really a problem to be honest. It is kinda catch 22....

If Fables were used a lot, then inflation would be an issue.

Fables aren't used a lot, hence it really isn't an issue.

So, until we find a way for Fables to be used, then we don't really have any issues with inflation being a problem. If we ever hit on a really good idea, or several of them, and Fatbacks start to be used more, then we need to keep tabs on it.

Hopefully you get what I mean. Do forestall your next question, which is:

If Fables aren't used a lot, why have them?

Well, they are used some, and I still think they do add to the site. If people don't want to 'play' then they can just ignore them. If they do want to get involved, then they can.

As we are now I can't see a real problem that is stopping anyone enjoying the site because of Fables. They don't take away from SGaming, and they can add a bit of fun. Should this change, we need to examine the issue with more urgency.


JezSharp wrote: I think the idea of branching out into other areas such as poetry would be a great direction for the site to go in...but only if it's done well! We need to get sg'ing right (which it is to a large extent) then create one at a time new areas of writing, probably along the same lines as the linear story comp with articles being submitted each month and judged - (clearly the linear story game forum needs sorting out atm but after that perhaps other forums along the same lines could appear).

To be perfectly frank, I hate poetry. :shock: However, I don't have to go there if one was done. As I mentioned somewhere else, strong voices on the Council were against adding more forums, arguing we should concentrate of SGaming.

I am a little on the fence here myself, so open to persuasion! In any case, I think Key would have to be the one to make final decision on such a change of site policy.


JezSharp wrote: One other suggestion is that for each sg that's promoted to a forum - it should have 2 threads, one for the Chapters and one for discussion so that for the people who come to read what's on offer don't have to trawl through pages of discussion (and thus improving the quality of the experience on the site).

Mmm, an interesting idea. Would this improve the quality? I think I prefer the comments in the story myself. It would be interesting to hear what other people think.

Thanks for you comments Jez. Sharp as always. ;)

[JezSharp]

Sigh...I can tell this is going to be a long and informed discusion on these issues China :) .

China wrote
Quote: Well, I only started this because the city didn't. If the City did it more would go into the Treasury. Not that much though and hardly enough to keep tabs on inflation - particularaly as I'mnot convinced many people would have any realmotivation for the scheme...however this is a side issue that doesn't really effect the scheme of things too much so I'll leave it there.

China wrote
Quote: We already have an award scheme I think, with SGotM. We tried player of the month as well, and now the PPP. They are high maintanance, and don't really seem to add much (except SGotM).

The PPP is a high maintance thing yes and I wasn't suggesting an awards scheme along those lines but more in line with the linear story comp awards scheme (Hall of Fame Idea etc) that I find works well. Personnally I'd always rather receive an award as apposed to Fables as it's more satisfying.

China wrote
Quote: If Fables were used a lot, then inflation would be an issue.

Fables aren't used a lot, hence it really isn't an issue.

So, until we find a way for Fables to be used, then we don't really have any issues with inflation being a problem. If we ever hit on a really good idea, or several of them, and Fatbacks start to be used more, then we need to keep tabs on it.

Hopefully you get what I mean. Do forestall your next question, which is:

If Fables aren't used a lot, why have them?

Well, they are used some, and I still think they do add to the site. If people don't want to 'play' then they can just ignore them. If they do want to get involved, then they can.

As we are now I can't see a real problem that is stopping anyone enjoying the site because of Fables. They don't take away from SGaming, and they can add a bit of fun. Should this change, we need to examine the issue with more urgency.


This just irks me slightly...Firstly if they ever become a vital part of the site you'll have a handful of people who have many thousands of fables and many more who have very few - points to the idea of upping the fable payment for new sg's as an example. It's fine for the established members of IF to pay the relatively small charge for promotion but for a new plyr who has virtually no fables but writes a stunning couple of sg's?

Secondly lets assume they do become in some way important to IFians (as must surely then be one of your aims) how would you then tackle inflation?

Thirdly in answer to your astute pre-empting of my next question :) , the first part of your answer is circular...if fables aren't important then that's true why aren't more people getting involved? If fables then do become important then people can't just play and ignore them as they'll be an integral part of belonging and being part of IF.

Secondly and more importantly I'd contend the statement 'They don't take away from SGaming, and they can add a bit of fun'. I challenge you to produce a list where the latter is the case, that cannot be substituted with a non-fable scheme that would preserve the fun...I'd also contend the former - from sg promotion for relatively new players to plyrs who 'fable hoard', which is detremental to the true points of IF...I my well touch on this again later with more thought...however I feel that fables add very little 'fun' and certainly can be equally de-beneficial - I am certainly farfrom convinced as to their necessity. Essentially I feel that the two key points of IF are 'community' (Fables are neutral at best to this and I'd contend that they are detremental in places) and story gaming (where there are perhaps some more positive benefits but generally marginal ones (ensuring regular posting) that are counter balanced by some marginal bad points (many posts that perhaps stray from the topic to gain fables).

China wrote
Quote: I am a little on the fence here myself, so open to persuasion! In any case, I think Key would have to be the one to make final decision on such a change of site policy.

That's fair enough...I feel we should concentrate on sg'ing up until a point where everything is running smoothly then start to branch out into other areas of writing - expanding IF to be a haven for people who love other forms of writing etc. Certainly with the smallish community we have at the minutesuch rapid expansion may well be unwise.

and finally:
China wrote
Quote: Mmm, an interesting idea. Would this improve the quality? I think I prefer the comments in the story myself. It would be interesting to hear what other people think. Oh the same :) , I was merely suggesting that for sg's that don't have the privallege of seperate threads for each chpt that they had 2 threads, one for the sg and one linked from the sg to a iscussion thread so that thestory can be read fluently from start to end then the relevent discussion read.

Look forward to hearing your response China :)

[Chinaren]

Quote: points to the idea of upping the fable payment for new sg's as an example. It's fine for the established members of IF to pay the relatively small charge for promotion but for a new plyr who has virtually no fables but writes a stunning couple of sg's?

LOL! Sorry, this is a little funny to me, because it was exactly my line when Smee introduced the fee for promotion! However, he had a reasonable point in his answer, which was that it wouldn't take very long to gain that many fables, and the way to gain such would be to play other people's SGames, which was surely a good thing.

A new player is entitled to their first SGame free as well remember.


Quote: Secondly lets assume they do become in some way important to IFians (as must surely then be one of your aims) how would you then tackle inflation?

That depends on how they have become important. Actually, important isn't the best word here perhaps. More widely used, would be better. In such a case, I am just assuming the circulation would increase to the extent it wouldn't be such a problem, but as this is all hyperthetical, I can't really give you a straight answer. Basically... Wait and see. :)

Quote: Thirdly in answer to your astute pre-empting of my next question , the first part of your answer is circular...if fables aren't important then that's true why aren't more people getting involved?

Um, I think that statement answers its own question. :?

Quote: If fables then do become important then people can't just play and ignore them as they'll be an integral part of belonging and being part of IF.

Again, I can't comment on a situation that doesn't exist.

Quote: Secondly and more importantly I'd contend the statement 'They don't take away from SGaming, and they can add a bit of fun'. I challenge you to produce a list where the latter is the case, that cannot be substituted with a non-fable scheme that would preserve the fun...

So we would need another scheme to replace the Fables? Is this is what you mean? Your statement implies that they do add something to the site. :grin:


Quote: I'd also contend the former - from sg promotion for relatively new players to plyrs who 'fable hoard', which is detremental to the true points of IF...

How, exactly, is it detremental?

To be honest, I am a little insulted when people imply I hord fables. I write a lot on IF, and as a result I get more Fables, my post count goes up and all the rest of it. Anyone else is free to do the same, I have not done anything that anyone else cannot do.


Quote: I my well touch on this again later with more thought...however I feel that fables add very little 'fun' and certainly can be equally de-beneficial - I am certainly farfrom convinced as to their necessity. Essentially I feel that the two key points of IF are 'community' (Fables are neutral at best to this and I'd contend that they are detremental in places)

Well, I never said they were a necessity. Though they certainly give people something to talk about!

I don't see anywhere where Fables are detremental. Please point some out and I will comment.

Quote: and story gaming (where there are perhaps some more positive benefits but generally marginal ones (ensuring regular posting) that are counter balanced by some marginal bad points (many posts that perhaps stray from the topic to gain fables).

Initially there may have been a slight problem with some posters 'spamming' to gain Fables. However, I really don't think this happens these days.

I, personally, am more 'annoyed' by the random word-game threads.

Also, even if people were 'flamming*' then should you take the Fables away, these Flammers would only post to increase their post count or something else. Something that has also happened in the past.

Once again Jez, a good and well thought out post, but nothing you have said has convinced me that Fables are detremental enough to the city, or a 'big enough' problem, to warrant any drastic change in policy.

Just FYI... There was a sizable debate on this in the last election, perhaps the thread is still around somewhere...


*Spamming for Fables. There, I just made a new word!

[JezSharp]

Hmm ok some excellent points made China :) , I'll try to be a little more specific on some of the points:

China wrote
Quote: LOL! Sorry, this is a little funny to me, because it was exactly my line when Smee introduced the fee for promotion! However, he had a reasonable point in his answer, which was that it wouldn't take very long to gain that many fables, and the way to gain such would be to play other people's SGames, which was surely a good thing.

A new player is entitled to their first SGame free as well remember.

Yes I guess so...although not take that long depends on how much posting a person does...however I have to admit that the argument makes some sense (although the system does seem to be saying then that new players are under more pressure to post replies in order to write...which may well be a reasonable thing) anyway point taken and accepted :) .

China wrote
Quote: Actually, important isn't the best word here perhaps. More widely used, would be better. In such a case, I am just assuming the circulation would increase to the extent it wouldn't be such a problem Fine ok lets use the term 'more widely used' instead of important...more widely used for what exactly??? What sort of schemes would we be encouraged to use our fables more widely on? Circulation between Ifians won't help inflation as Fables coming into Ifians wouldn't be affected (unless such circulation was taxed to the treasury and then re-distributed from the treasury to create a fixed number of Fables within the City and to subsequently cap the number of Fables any one person has so that you don't end up with a couple of IFians having all the fables).

China wrote
Quote: Again, I can't comment on a situation that doesn't exist. ...slightly unsure as to why you can't speculate on a hypothetical situation but it isn't really an issue that I feel needs to be pursued further in any case.

China wrote
Quote: So we would need another scheme to replace the Fables? Is this is what you mean? Your statement implies that they do add something to the site.

Yes! Yes! and Yes!, almost certainly awards based in some form. My statement implies that because yes I would have to be an incredibly one sided person if I didn't think that they did help the site in some ways, you're obviously not going to champion a cause that is completely detremental to the site (I hope :? )...however I feel that the benefits they offer come with too many complexities and downsides and that there ought to be a better scheme in place.

China wrote
Quote: To be honest, I am a little insulted when people imply I hord fables that wasn't aimed at you China, just because you own the most fables doesn't necessarily mean you hoarde them...in fact given the fact that you regularaly give out awards etc I didn't have you marked down as a so called 'horder' :) .

Quote: Well, I never said they were a necessity. Though they certainly give people something to talk about! So this appears to imply that they are not in any way a fundamental part of the site and should be weighed on their merits...ok I'll set out the pro's and cons below in a moment.

Oh and yes I agree over the posting for fables point that you made, I wrote that point on the spur of the moment and haven't actually seen much fable farming going on. Right onto the pro's and con's:

Pro's

- Encourage more posts on sg's: Probably the biggest pro as the only alternative is a Player of the month award in some form (Properly managed that may be able to go some way to replacing fables). Also as there are relatively few things to spend Fables on the motivational factor of the above is diminished, I would be much more inspired to post for awards than fables (perhaps even with each sg author having a set of awards to be given out to sg players...)
- Can used as incentives/prizes: Awards could do a better job here.
- Can be used to ensure quality on new sg's: Correction...this is probably the biggest pro of fables and yet a two tiered editor system ought to take care of quality without fable incentives (pre empting the what's to stop vast numbers of submissions question, frankly if a level one editor glances over it and rejects it twice then it should be rejected for promotion for a period of several weeks/a month or a cheme along those lines).
- Can be used to regulate the number of goes on games such s Zogby: Could also be done with a quota system

Cons:

- The whole site is set up to promote community spirit as well as sg's, I feel that fables don't play a great role in this. A new player entering the site will see that most of the regular members have fable counts in the thousands and yet it could take them many months to reach that, particularaly if they are not the most fluent of posters (as in they make good but short points as opposed to ones fullof typos). It then makes them feel inferior and could put some off taking part within the site.

- They are an unwelcome distraction from the sg aim of the site. the main aimof the site is to promote the writing and playing of good sg's (along with community spirit). The whole premesis of fables is the more you write the more you earn - the emphasis on quantity not quality whereas an awards based scheme would be more centred on quality than quantity. Perhaps as a compramise people would earn a much small number of Fable like points for awards won that they could then use on the occasionnal thing that is worth spending fables on (e.g being placed into an sg or commissioning a drawing).

That is for now all I can think of. In summary it seems to me that although fables are in some ways beneficial to the site, an awards based scheme would be far more beneficial as it aims to reward quality over quantity and is more in line with the promotion of good sg'ing whilst losing none of the benefits of the Fable based scheme. Hmmm....

Anyway moving back to the Forum topic and a practical impliction of what was said above :) , I would be interested on your Mayoral ideas as to how you intend to make the Fable more 'widely used', other than the idea of people buying each other medals( which I'm not convinced on), if you are to go along with the monetary scheme as it is at present...

[LordoftheNight]

Mainly because I've been silent up to now...

Jez wrote: Pro's

- Encourage more posts on sg's: Probably the biggest pro as the only alternative is a Player of the month award in some form (Properly managed that may be able to go some way to replacing fables). Also as there are relatively few things to spend Fables on the motivational factor of the above is diminished, I would be much more inspired to post for awards than fables (perhaps even with each sg author having a set of awards to be given out to sg players...)
- Can used as incentives/prizes: Awards could do a better job here.


The trouble with awards, is that they are not immediately obvious. If you look at the honour roll (probably the closest thing to 'awards' as we have) it simply doesn't get up dated with frequency. Smee has explained (over MSN) that it takes a while to update player profiles with their awards as well. So unless the new Mayor is willing to spend the time updating profiles, no one is actually going to be able to see the effects of these awards.

Fables on the other hand, are instantly visible, as they are displayed whenever a player posts in a fable topic.

Jez wrote:
- Can be used to ensure quality on new sg's: Correction...this is probably the biggest pro of fables and yet a two tiered editor system ought to take care of quality without fable incentives (pre empting the what's to stop vast numbers of submissions question, frankly if a level one editor glances over it and rejects it twice then it should be rejected for promotion for a period of several weeks/a month or a cheme along those lines).


There's still nothing in an editor system that requires people to write chapters of a certain length, only that they are of a minimum length. With the fable system, longer chapters generate more fables.
Jez wrote:
Cons:

- The whole site is set up to promote community spirit as well as sg's, I feel that fables don't play a great role in this. A new player entering the site will see that most of the regular members have fable counts in the thousands and yet it could take them many months to reach that, particularaly if they are not the most fluent of posters (as in they make good but short points as opposed to ones fullof typos). It then makes them feel inferior and could put
some off taking part within the site.

Would you prefer the post count blocked as well then? Surely it has exactly the same effect?

Nerc wrote: Just FYI... There was a sizable debate on this in the last election, perhaps the thread is still around somewhere...

I'm fairly sure it's in the archieves if you want to check it out.

[JezSharp]

Quote: The trouble with awards, is that they are not immediately obvious. If you look at the honour roll (probably the closest thing to 'awards' as we have) it simply doesn't get up dated with frequency. Smee has explained (over MSN) that it takes a while to update player profiles with their awards as well. So unless the new Mayor is willing to spend the time updating profiles, no one is actually going to be able to see the effects of these awards.

Yes, well as to being obvious I'm fairly sure under a new system they would be made so and there would be some extra work needed in terms of having a system in place but not a huge amount surely...I'm not too sure having not gone over practicalities of the whole thing, but it would probably be done on a monthly basis so the mayor would probably only have to update once a month...?

Also is it such a good thing for fables to be so visible...? I'd almost say it would be a better thing for them to be invisible.


Quote: There's still nothing in an editor system that requires people to write chapters of a certain length, only that they are of a minimum length. With the fable system, longer chapters generate more fables.
Well as long as the quality is good and above minimun length then thats fine, having people writing poor quality sg's to gain more fables is surely something not to be encouraged...? The point was anyway to do with promotion in general rather than length as such.

Quote: Would you prefer the post count blocked as well then? Surely it has exactly the same effect? ...not so sure it does, it's merely something common sensical...I suppose in one way it does work in the same light...dang it...perhaps I would actually...have ranks decided on the basis of activetime spent on IF...right no I'm not going to branch off down that line of thought for now so possibly :) .

Anyway, I appreciate that there may be some implementation hurdles to overcome (as there are with any new system, I'm sure there probably were and still are with fables) with regards to having a more awards based structure on IF, however I feel that it may well be worth while. Perhaps the future Mayor could hold some sort of vote as to whether the people on IF would prefer a more awards based system? After all, trying to implement such a system would be useless without general support for it. Then after that (or before/whenever) some of the more detailed and practicalpoints of how to actually implement it efficiently and successfully could be discussed.

So to sum up my posts up to now:

- I tend to favour a more awards orientated IF to replace fables as it would have more focus on the quality of work than quantity - however feel that it should probably be put to a debate after the Mayoral elections and so therefore other than inquiring whether China would support the idea of such an open discussion/vote (for this topic but also perhaps for other issues within IF) over the issue I think perhaps it is time to draw the current discussion on it to a close on this thread.

- Secondly assuming for now that we do continue with fables under the new Mayorship what are China's plans to 'widen the use' of Fables within IF other than the trade of medals?

(I love politics :lol: )

[Chinaren]

Quote: - I tend to favour a more awards orientated IF to replace fables as it would have more focus on the quality of work than quantity - however feel that it should probably be put to a debate after the Mayoral elections and so therefore other than inquiring whether China would support the idea of such an open discussion/vote (for this topic but also perhaps for other issues within IF) over the issue I think perhaps it is time to draw the current discussion on it to a close on this thread.

Perhaps we could do something that combines both somehow. Perhaps replace 1,000Fables with a 'Fable medal' to be put in the honors area. Or we put 5,000Fables in the treasury and put a 5k'Token' in the honors, and should the player want the Fables for something, they can withdraw them. I dunno, just thinking aloud.

[Edit] Oh, there may also be some techinical issues with the honors system, as in coding.

Quote: - Secondly assuming for now that we do continue with fables under the new Mayorship what are China's plans to 'widen the use' of Fables within IF other than the trade of medals?

Ah, well you have hit the nail on the 64,000Fable question there.

As I think I mentioned above, I am open to suggestions on that one!

[JezSharp]

:( Fables for medals wasn't quite what I had in mind, although it may go some way to circulating the Fables to the treasury and solving inflation :) . Or as a comprimise the other way, an award scheme where you can earn an 'honour point' for winning awards to then trade internally...but that too could present its own unique set of problems and I'm too tired to think them all through right now.

[Edit] - Of course one solution to the inflation problem would be to cap the number of fables each person can have and fix a fixed number of fables within the system, although this has a few problems too.

As to issues with coding...I think the thing to do is to hold an open discussion with a poll at the end to see whether people would favour a more awards based IF, then work on the technicalities...if part of a scheme is impossible or unworkable there will probably be a way to simplify it...so in answer to the earlier question would you be open to establishing democratic discussion and voting on at least some key issues about the direction of IF :) ?



Quote: Ah, well you have hit the nail on the 64,000Fable question there.

:shock: Ah...right so the need to make fables more widely used is recognised but not the know how to impliment it within the city (if indeed there is such a way...although sax had a reasonable idea). The thing is what would Ifians want to do with their fables??? There are occasionally good schemes but generally tempory ones (whereas awards are more permanent records of actual acheivement... *no got to stop arguing that just now*)...it is certainly a difficult question to deal with.

[Edit]
I'm also interested in what plans you (and the other candidates) have regarding the community feel within IF as that is the other main attracting factor (and arguably the main) and so should also be a key factor in the choice of Mayor. Unlike with fables though I have no real ideas on how to improve the site in this respect so will listen with interest to what you propose :) .

[Smudger]

Chinaren,here's a question that i've just thought up. Now monthly we host a Story Game of the Month...well, I was thinking that unless my writing improves by like a 100 times then it will take a masterpiece to beat some of the stories here. Now would you consider having 2 SGotM comps, 1 for rookie beginners, and one for the great writers, like Smee, you and the other ekders and builders?

[Smee]

OK - a weekend away (Alton Towers Woo :D) and I'm back with more comments.

Great debate Jez/Chinaren - interesting points made. Another generation of IF (Jez ;) ) discovers all the delights and issues of fables.

It seems to have boiled down to the crux of the issue though. There is little to spend them on. Brains have been racked, stretched, pickled and prodded for ideas - but few have been forthcoming.

Quote: This just irks me slightly...Firstly if they ever become a vital part of the site you'll have a handful of people who have many thousands of fables and many more who have very few - points to the idea of upping the fable payment for new sg's as an example. It's fine for the established members of IF to pay the relatively small charge for promotion but for a new plyr who has virtually no fables but writes a stunning couple of sg's?


Quote: LOL! Sorry, this is a little funny to me, because it was exactly my line when Smee introduced the fee for promotion! However, he had a reasonable point in his answer, which was that it wouldn't take very long to gain that many fables, and the way to gain such would be to play other people's SGames, which was surely a good thing.

A new player is entitled to their first SGame free as well remember.


Quote: Yes I guess so...although not take that long depends on how much posting a person does...however I have to admit that the argument makes some sense (although the system does seem to be saying then that new players are under more pressure to post replies in order to write...which may well be a reasonable thing) anyway point taken and accepted .

*grins* Yep - Chinaren definately argued your point first time around on this one Jez - and I'm not going to continue the argument as you have taken the point.

However there's the important point about this pressure on new people.

I'd respond that a new Storygame Player has none of this pressure - which is the type of new people we are after. The city has had plenty of writers for some time now and it is only those people who want to immediately write that have a little pressure to comment first to earn the fables to afford a storygame of their own.

The overwhelming point of this is to make sure they have at least seen storygames in action first. The best writer in the world may well struggle with decision points until they've seen a couple working. By requiring them to earn some fables first lessens the questions they ask about the basics of writing storygames in two ways...

First they realise how to do it from playing existing games.

Second, after some time exploring the city they are more likely to come across the FAQ's and other tips that are scattered about.

Third, their name becomes recognised around the city and they are part of the community more when their first chapter comes out. This makes it more likely to get readers straight away.

It really benefits everyone.

Call it an initiation if you like. Many clubs, societies, groups and communities don't let new membes do everything straight away. Storygaming IS the main focus of the site, and community. It makes sense to have this 'initiation' before they can write a new storygame straight away. All other aspects of the group are available to them straight away.

~

Continuing from the point above. To help those new writers, and also with the fable issue a little is an idea I mentioned in the council halls a while ago.

Sponsorship...

If an older member of IF spots a new author they like, there's nothing stopping them sponsoring the new author - paying the editor/promotion fees to get them through?

But I haven't seen it happen yet.

This can't be a situation where the author starts mass PM'ing people asking for fables - because that'd just get annoying very quickly - but something like a shamless advertising thread for new writers asking for sponsorship could work.

Loans...

There's already loan schemes to pay for promotion. But because the new authors are so keen to get in there immediately (and moan because they can't until they've earnt some fables) they haven't read enough of the existing site enough to discover such facilities.

Even if it were 1000F to get promoted - the means of getting access to the fables are there to someone willing to put some effort in. Why should it be soooooooo easy? Life isn't easy. If you truely want something then a little effort to get it will make it that much sweeter when you do.

~

Seperate point now...

So many people asking / suggesting this site move toward poetry, script writing and a dozen other forms of writing.

*sigh* and *double sigh*...

Please - before reading any further - have a 5 minute look around this site...

Writing.com

This website started 6 years ago with a new style of writing on the internet called "interactive stories". It was called 'Story.com' then.

After a couple of years people started asking for poetry, short stories, forums, competitions, crosswords, etc. etc. etc. Sound familiar?

The result - it was turned into writing.com and the original interactives are now all but dead - with only a handful of stories mainly about magical shrinking/growing or fat people :?

The owners of that website have changed their entire focus and turned it into a place to learn/improve writing.

IF isn't, and so far, never has been a place to learn how to write. It should be a place to Storygame, storygame and storygame.

Want to write poetry - do it on Writing.com or any of the thousands of other websites that you can write poetry on.

You can write Storygames NOWHERE ELSE. So why the insisting in drowning it out with all the common forms of writing you can do anywhere?

It seems entirely illogical to me?

This isn't Writing.com, and this isn't *shudder* MySpace.

This is The City of IF - enjoy it.


I'll be back* :D

*gotta go to work now.

[JezSharp]

Hmm...Interesting post Smee :) . I accept that fables do work in relation to ensuring some quality of sg promotion...but this could inessence be negated under a non- fable system by allowing one sg per new player until that sg has been promoted and reached x Chapters. Besides the more you tend to post on other peoples sg's the more they will tend to post on yours (theoretically) so the incentive to post wuld lie there. Anyway I won't go off on this point because for now it's static until such a time as a vote is held to move the site towards or away from fables.

The second point you raised is very good. Branching out IF on a rapid basis to crosswords etc.would be an unmittigated disaster...however branching out slowly and integrating each thing slowly and well within the city of IF would be more likely to help it grow rather than killing it. Surely we should only use the other site as an example of how not to do it, learn from their mistakes and develop the other ideas slowly forward. Before that happens though we need to ensure the site as it is is running well and smoothly.

[Smee]

Quote: Branching out IF on a rapid basis to crosswords etc.would be an unmittigated disaster...however branching out slowly and integrating each thing slowly and well within the city of IF would be more likely to help it grow rather than killing it

Don't get me wrong about Writing.com - it is VERY successful with an average of 1000 people online at anyone time. And it happened over 6 years - not super fast, and fairly well controlled.

The point I was making was not the speed it happens, but the dilution happening at all.

If IF is destined for that - however slowly and well managed - then I think it'd be a crying shame.

~

As for fables - I was on the side for getting rid of them. As we're fairly stuck with them, everything I've done with them is in an effort to work with what we have.

:)

[JezSharp]

Quote: The point I was making was not the speed it happens, but the dilution happening at all. The trouble is where does the line for what is and isn't diluting...is for instance the casino diluting...? Perhaps the thing to do is examine what the people on the site would see as retaining quality to the site. I'd argue for instance that (although I'm not it's greatest fan of yet) that (good) poetry is along the same lines as linear stories but beyond that I'm struggling to think of anything else that can be feasably added...certainly not crosswords etc *shudders*. Anyway I think for now at any rate the taskis to get sg'ing right, and only when we have an established base of people reading and playing sg's should we look to strengthening some of the smaller branches of writing talent.

Quote: As for fables - I was on the side for getting rid of them. As we're fairly stuck with them, everything I've done with them is in an effort to work with what we have. Yep...I hold that in the near future a public debate and vote on whether to stick with fables on the site should be held to establish if they are favoured (if so then there isn't much point bringing in any other scheme) but until then and beyond working out a better useage for them is going to have to be the plan...however unsolvable that is :?

- In terms of dealing with inflation and players a handful of players having vast reams of fables one solution could be to have a fixed number of fables within the system and then cap the number of fables each individual player gets (with the amount being varied each month with regard to new plyrs).

- Or alternatively as China suggested paying x thousand for IF Stars/Honors...although cynically it is rather a waste of Fables to spend them on something that is fairly worthless and pointless - but itmight work to circulate more money into the treasury. [/quote]

[Smee]

Quote: Surely we should only use the other site as an example of how not to do it, learn from their mistakes and develop the other ideas slowly forward.

OK... learning from Writing.com...

One thing it does have - in my opinion - is a successful currency.

Their 'fables' are called GP's and there is one over-riding difference that is most likely unfeasible for Fables.

They have a real-world exchange rate / value of about 10'000gps to $1.

This means they can be bought for cash, and also used to pay for the various memberships available on the site.

Whilst this is clearly a regular expenditure for long-term members, it's beyond our scope for IF - it isn't a money venture at this time.

However - GP's are successful in other ways.

The crucial point - they can't be earnt in any way unless given by someone else. The moderators/admin give them out too, but the majority of flow is from members to members. And this comes in a variety of different ways. From gifts for enjoying reading and to encourage the writer to continue, to gifts from the writers for reviews and comments given.

There's raffles - with people donating 100GP's perhaps and buying a 'ticket' and then the prize pool being divided amongst winners. There's groups of members who pool resources and take donations and hunt out and give them out to various deserving members. One of the biggest is called RAOK or Random Acts of Kindness.

If we stopped fable income from commenting, and actively 'encouraged' to the point where it was almost a rule, to reward good writing, and good comments - then the flow of fables would exist only between players. Inflation would be possible.

Then it'd only be a matter of City Treasury injections of cash into the economy to keep the flow going and make sure that new members have a chance to earn some. Easily done through auctions, competitions and other such ideas already thought of by others.

I've got to go now (work beckons) but I'll be back to finish this thought.

[Key]

Great discussion, everyone! :D

Smee wrote: Writing.com

This website started 6 years ago with a new style of writing on the internet called "interactive stories". It was called 'Story.com' then.

After a couple of years people started asking for poetry, short stories, forums, competitions, crosswords, etc. etc. etc. Sound familiar?

The result - it was turned into writing.com and the original interactives are now all but dead - with only a handful of stories mainly about magical shrinking/growing or fat people :?

That's really interesting. I had no idea that writing.com started out as a site for interactive stories. How did they work? In what way were they interactive?

Smee wrote: One thing it does have - in my opinion - is a successful currency.

Their 'fables' are called GP's and there is one over-riding difference that is most likely unfeasible for Fables.

They have a real-world exchange rate / value of about 10'000gps to $1.

This means they can be bought for cash, and also used to pay for the various memberships available on the site.

Whilst this is clearly a regular expenditure for long-term members, it's beyond our scope for IF - it isn't a money venture at this time.

However - GP's are successful in other ways.

The crucial point - they can't be earnt in any way unless given by someone else. The moderators/admin give them out too, but the majority of flow is from members to members. And this comes in a variety of different ways. From gifts for enjoying reading and to encourage the writer to continue, to gifts from the writers for reviews and comments given.

There's raffles - with people donating 100GP's perhaps and buying a 'ticket' and then the prize pool being divided amongst winners. There's groups of members who pool resources and take donations and hunt out and give them out to various deserving members. One of the biggest is called RAOK or Random Acts of Kindness.

If we stopped fable income from commenting, and actively 'encouraged' to the point where it was almost a rule, to reward good writing, and good comments - then the flow of fables would exist only between players. Inflation would be possible.

Then it'd only be a matter of City Treasury injections of cash into the economy to keep the flow going and make sure that new members have a chance to earn some. Easily done through auctions, competitions and other such ideas already thought of by others.
I think the success of the currency is dependent on people being able to buy something of value with it, as marked in red above. All the rest is gravy. We could make fables purchasable for real world currency, stopped fable income from commenting, and only allowed fable transfers between players, and it wouldn't make a bit of difference - there would be no point to having them if there was nothing to spend them on.

In my long-term vision for the site, I would like to do some kind of membership, where people can get access to restricted parts of the site (like premium storygames) by paying a fee. The site needs to be much larger to support something like that, but if we are able to roll that out, I can imagine selling memberships for fables as well as for real currency.

[Chinaren]

Not on the topic of Fables for a moment.

It is interesting to see how quickly Writing.com has grown. It led me to think... why so fast?

The only real answer I could think of was... the name.

Perhaps if IF had catchy name sites that forwarded to here we would get more traffic.

Of course the two problems with that is that Key would have to spend money on domain names ;) (though these are usually quite cheap), but also the good names are already gone.

However, just a suggestion. :?

I am also going to copy an idea from Writing.com soon as an experiment. Not going to tell you what until I do it though! ;)

[chiacutie]

i would hate premium things! I hate it when they do that! All my current fable income is going towards Chia Inc. so thats like discouraging that which is bad because thats something that is supposed to encourage readers/ writers.

I cant pay real money- we nevevr buy anything online, my fathers policy.

I HATE that! That will slowly turn the site into something else.. eventually we will have 'special deals' and you would only able to play for a few months before paying.. I would hate that so much. It kind of distracts from the site point and.. Ugh!

Fables SHOULD be earned mostly by posting/awards/etc etc etc! Not cash!

[Chinaren]

To be honest Chia, it would lock me out too, as I have no way to pay from here.

However, I can fully understand Keys' comment. It is his site, and no doubt he would like to get a return on his investment someday!

[chiacutie]

Yeah I do ndersatnd sorry if I seemed mean/rude its just I hate that idea. I realize that this IS your site. And all that. I just DETEST that particular idea.

[Key]

chiacutie wrote: I cant pay real money- we nevevr buy anything online, my fathers policy.

I HATE that! That will slowly turn the site into something else.. eventually we will have 'special deals' and you would only able to play for a few months before paying.. I would hate that so much. It kind of distracts from the site point and.. Ugh!

chinaren wrote: It is his site, and no doubt he would like to get a return on his investment someday!

Well, let me clarify. I talk about this a lot in part V of the City of IF story as well.

First of all, the site will always have free storygaming. No one will be locked out - everyone will be free to come in and start their own storygame, or play in others', just as we do now.

As an addition, at some point in the future, the City of IF could pay select authors and artists to create extra storygames that are as high quality as possible - in writing, graphics and possibly even animation, and in which the chapters come out on a frequent, regular schedule. The point of doing this would be to advance the art of storygaming, but in order to have this kind of effort, the storygame creators would need to be paid, and so we could charge to play in these "premium" games as an add-on to cover those costs.

I don't have any plans to do this - like I said, in order for this to be economical, the site would need to be much bigger. But if we did do something like that, I was just saying that we could allow players to use site currency as well as real currency to enter these games. So if you were a regular storygame player, you wouldn't need to pay anything even to see the premium storygames. It seems to me that that would be the best of both worlds - we'd get money to support dedicated storygame creators, but if a player couldn't afford it they could always earn their way in by playing storygames.

[chiacutie]

Like I said, all my fables go to Chia Awards....

[Masterweaver]

Many members join in order to play games, but leave, dissappointed, without posting! How wil you deal with this?

Often, i find myself alone in the city of IF. I post to get atention, but nobody's on! Will you prevent the RL epidemic in any way?

[chiacutie]

Masterweaver wrote: Many members join in order to play games, but leave, dissappointed, without posting! How wil you deal with this?

Often, i find myself alone in the city of IF. I post to get atention, but nobody's on! Will you prevent the RL epidemic in any way?

A. That's how people are. This is not a video game site, dude.

B. We can't FORCE pepole on.

C. Mayoral Election is over man. Find somethin else TO DO