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Chapter 6. Challenges
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Chinaren



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Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:44 pm    Post subject: Chapter 6. Challenges  

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JezSharp



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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:08 am    Post subject:  

Yey, another Chapter! Duel wise he has to go with his strengths...but I'm not altogether sure what they are...something intelligence or magic based would seem best - avoid all actual fighting as his opponent will have the upper hand.
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LordoftheNight



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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:20 am    Post subject:  

Yes, something magic based does certainly seem to be the most plausible challenge for victory. Remembering that the Duke could simply stab him as opposed to completing the challenge, I'd suggest something quickly fatal, or damning.

Being no more than an apprentice, he probably won't know any death dealing spells - maybe some form of levitation? First person to retrieve an item?
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Chinaren



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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:59 am    Post subject:  

lordofthenight wrote:
Being no more than an apprentice, he probably won't know any death dealing spells - maybe some form of levitation? First person to retrieve an item?

Ooh, that's a good idea. :cool:
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dinranwen
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:37 am    Post subject:  

The people as well as the Borne, are obviously expecting a fight or at least something where Borne can face Bryold alone in a situation where Borne can kill Bryold without being punished. Use this to you advantage.

Challenge him to something he won't expect. Bryold though only an apprentice in the magical arts can use his abilities to his advantage, as well as his own cleverness. I say propose a riddle which to solve you must either make, retrive, buy, or find a certain item.

Something like oh...I don't know, this: In the semblance of life it must be, the creation of hands where roots should be, thriving in the sun, though living not, answer wisely before the throne you be defraught. Tricky, but relatively simple when you think about it. The answer is simple, and if you wish to know it, here it is: The Challengers must find an object which has the resemblance of something near them that would normally grow with 'roots' and that was either made by their own or somebody elses hands.

Whatever you do, don't give your challenger an oppurintity to face you alone with a weapon in his hands.
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D-Lotus
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:36 pm    Post subject:  

China, I liked the chapter, but I think you should offer us a little more history on the challenge. What gives a Duke the right to challenge the future king?

Magic and wisdom is all very fine- but what will the people think? Do they want their ruler to win through wile? He may be remembered as Solomon, a wise king (which he was not, really), but we must be careful or Byrold will be thought a coward and a cheater who won through tricks.

If we challenge him through Magic or intelligence, then we have to make sure that there is a condition that the loser gets executed, else we won't be able to get rid of him and he'll cause more problems.

If we want to fight pyshically, then we should somehow weaken him before the fight begins. Somehow cast a spell on him before the fight to make him tired, maybe by shaking his hand and channeling the spell through there.
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Chinaren
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:55 pm    Post subject:  

D-Lotus wrote: China, I liked the chapter, but I think you should offer us a little more history on the challenge. What gives a Duke the right to challenge the future king?

It is an ancient clause in the ritual. Hence by law he has the right.

D-Lotus wrote: Magic and wisdom is all very fine- but what will the people think? Do they want their ruler to win through wile? He may be remembered as Solomon, a wise king (which he was not, really), but we must be careful or Byrold will be thought a coward and a cheater who won through tricks.


Well, to be honest I don't think Byrold needs worry too much about what the people think. Winners write the history books, so if he won he could spin it the best way he could. Which would be the same for the Duke as well. :shock:
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Kalanna Rai
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:31 pm    Post subject:  

If the baron and Eldra have been plotting long they'll count on Byrold to choose something related to his magical studies. Instead I'd challenge them on some obscure part of the Crowing ceremony itself. Surely there would be something about it only the heir apparent would be told and on one else...

That's just one thought I'll be back with more.
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Argonaut
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:55 pm    Post subject:  

what do you mean by "resort to violence"? Does that mean that no matter what the contest is, anyone can just stab the other guy with a dagger whenever they like?

In any case, this random guy wouldn't challenge Byrold unless he was absolutly sure he would win. So Eldra must have convinced him he would. So they are quite obviously already cheating. And, since they don't get to pick the contest, the cheat must involve the dagger. Perhaps it is enchanted or poisoned, whatever it is Duke Brone is not even going to bother with the contest, he'll go straight for the stabbing.

How should Byrold deal with this? Maybe he should beat Brone to the punch, lay out some elaborate challenge, then immediately stab him with a dagger. Seems kinda underhanded :( Perhaps a challenge that keeps them far away from each other for the entire three hours. During that time perhaps Byrolds agents can figure something out. Seems kinda uncertain :( Maybe something an apprentice mage can do very quickly (an easy spell) but a non-mage can't do at all. Then Byrold will win the challenge before Brone even has a chance to pull his dagger. That levitation idea might work, "first one to reach that chandelier without anyone else's assistance" but if he levitates too slowly he might get stabbed :)
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dinranwen
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:23 pm    Post subject:  

Hmmm...on second thought. Rai's idea of challenging your challenger on a certain part of the actual crowning cermony seems better. This would A. Give Bryold an advantage, and B. Percieved as Fair by all.

Plus it has the added benefit of finding out some of those cermonies, and ancient traditions that I personally relish in but you convently skipped.

Surely there is something that would incorprate all our ideas in the rituals mainly: To keep away from the Duke and avoid a physical contest, either kill or other wise severly damage either the honor or authority of your oppunent, and Bryold still being viewed as the fair, compassionant, and thoughtful ruler's all King's should be.
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D-Lotus
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:20 pm    Post subject:  

chinaren wrote: It is an ancient clause in the ritual. Hence by law he has the right.

An ancient clause? Well, I was asking what the history behind this is- because in stories I read before (e.g. The Prince and the Pauper, where the scene is laid out like this one when the pauper is going to be crowned and the real prince walks in to demand his throne back), only a heir claming the throne can challenge like that. The Duke is not anybody to challenge the king. If just anybody can challenge the king, then any usurpers could constantly challenge him until they won. It doesn't make sense that this clause would exist. Why would it be created in the first place, and why didn't the other kings get rid of it in fear of their descendants being taken the throne away at coronation? Sorry, but I need an explanation for it to make sense.

I know I'm being picky, but remember that details are important in all your works, especially if you want to go pro, like you said you wanted to be in the Builders forum, China.

Chinaren wrote: Well, to be honest I don't think Byrold needs worry too much about what the people think. Winners write the history books, so if he won he could spin it the best way he could. Which would be the same for the Duke as well. :shock:

In that case, why even accept the challenge? Just order him to be arrested and executed and continue with the ceremony. After all, winners write the history books, so he can spin it in whichever way he wants. ;)
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Chinaren
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:18 pm    Post subject:  

D-Lotus wrote: chinaren wrote: It is an ancient clause in the ritual. Hence by law he has the right.

An ancient clause? Well, I was asking what the history behind this is- because in stories I read before (e.g. The Prince and the Pauper, where the scene is laid out like this one when the pauper is going to be crowned and the real prince walks in to demand his throne back), only a heir claming the throne can challenge like that. The Duke is not anybody to challenge the king. If just anybody can challenge the king, then any usurpers could constantly challenge him until they won. It doesn't make sense that this clause would exist. Why would it be created in the first place, and why didn't the other kings get rid of it in fear of their descendants being taken the throne away at coronation? Sorry, but I need an explanation for it to make sense.

I know I'm being picky, but remember that details are important in all your works, especially if you want to go pro, like you said you wanted to be in the Builders forum, China.

No problemo D, I like my stories to be logical. :D

Okay, firstly the information given by Tarall was only a small part of the lore, due to time limitations he was telling Byrold the essential bit!

The challenger (it will turn out*) needs to be of certain bloodlines. Also they must have backing of two others of rank, though these backers do not have to show themselves if the challenger loses.

Only one challenge per coronation is allowed.

History: In ancient times, should the proposed king be deemed unworthy by his peers despite all other safeguards, a challenge could be mounted as a final test. The law was made back in a more barbaric era, but has never been repealed. The backers anonyminity clause was added to ensure retribution would not fall upon those who though they were only 'doing their duty'.


D-Lotus wrote: Chinaren wrote: Well, to be honest I don't think Byrold needs worry too much about what the people think. Winners write the history books, so if he won he could spin it the best way he could. Which would be the same for the Duke as well. :shock:

In that case, why even accept the challenge? Just order him to be arrested and executed and continue with the ceremony. After all, winners write the history books, so he can spin it in whichever way he wants. ;)

It could be an option. However, if he doesn't play by the 'rules of the game', it may allow a legal challenge to be launched. Even if Byrold chooses a 'trick' challenge, he will be seen to be complying with the law.

If Byrold does not obey the law, it could be a precident for others to do the same, which is a slippery slope to start down, especially while he has many possible rivals. :shock:

Argo wrote: what do you mean by "resort to violence"? Does that mean that no matter what the contest is, anyone can just stab the other guy with a dagger whenever they like?

Yup! :-o

*I am not making this up as I go, honest.
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Kalanna Rai
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:28 pm    Post subject:  

Well then the challenge must include a 'no weapons' clause. Like, I challenge the Duke to a pillow fight where we may be armed only with feather pillows and dressed in dressingowns. It doesn't say anywhere in that statment that Byrold can't use whatever magic he possesses, he's got to know something, but it does say that neither of them may have any kind of weapons or armor.

Now we just need to find a suitable challenge to fill in the blanks with...pillow fighting hardly seems digified for a coronation challenge...neither does hide and seek.
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JezSharp
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:13 am    Post subject:  

Could go with rolling the 'dice of the crowning', then use small amount of magic on the dice...he'd have to be sure though that the Duke had less magical ability than him.
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solus.serpen
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:34 am    Post subject:  

:) All great I deas, I think.

Unfortunately my mind has had a black out after writing DESTINY last night, so I can't think of any good ideas.
I'll come back when/if I do.

solus.
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Jack_D.Mented
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:23 am    Post subject:  

Hmm...

Perhaps he could demand a shubbery? OR that he chop down a tree with a herring? :D

Nah...

Good chapter though. I'll think more on this later, when my brain isn't all nuked out from work.
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LordoftheNight
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:14 am    Post subject:  

Wow - Nice and original there Jack.
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Chinaren
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Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:12 am    Post subject:  

Some interesting suggestions here people.

I will put a poll up very soon, so any more, get 'em in! :D
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Random
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Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:33 am    Post subject:  

Hmmmm a tricky situation to say the least.

Can we get an idea of what Byrold can do? What is the scope of his powers? I realize he is only an apprentice but to ensure a decent idea is suggested I like to be informed :)

I would think we need two things to happen. 1) Keep the challenge from involving combat and 2) stack the chips in our favor. Although, the new sword we were presented is supposed to help us with combat. So maybe we trust in the blade of our ancestors and just face the Duke one on one. It could possibly be the last thing they would expect.

The advantages would be you don't have to worry about the Duke simply stabbing you while you are preparing. Or take advantage of this loop hole and challenge the Duke to an arm wrestling match. Once you are joined for the match, stab the Duke with a dagger.

My other idea was a footrace or a test of endurance, such as who can swim the farthest or longest or who can run the farthest.
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LordoftheNight
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Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:15 am    Post subject:  

Quote: The primary method of challenge is whatever you choose, but the challenger can always resort to violence, as long as it is limited to a dagger and no more as a weapon

I think - though I may be wrong for once *shock and or horror* that only the Challenger can use violence. It's to prevent the heir from simply choosing something the challenger can't do I'd assume.
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The White Blacksmith
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Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:39 pm    Post subject:  

I F5 Rai - Find some obscure clause and exploit it. Of course you can always fall back on the good, ol' fashioned Impossible Task thing, i.e sending him to get the wool from the Golden Lanb at the bottom of the Sea of Souls or whatever. And set the three hour time limit so Byrold will definately win.
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Chinaren
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Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:11 pm    Post subject:  

lordofthenight wrote: Quote: The primary method of challenge is whatever you choose, but the challenger can always resort to violence, as long as it is limited to a dagger and no more as a weapon

I think - though I may be wrong for once *shock and or horror* that only the Challenger can use violence. It's to prevent the heir from simply choosing something the challenger can't do I'd assume.

You have it half right Lordy. Both can use violence. And yes, it is to ensure the challenger doesn't set something only they can do, like juggling or something. If they did they would simply be stabbed.

The White Blacksmith wrote: I F5 Rai - Find some obscure clause and exploit it. Of course you can always fall back on the good, ol' fashioned Impossible Task thing, i.e sending him to get the wool from the Golden Lanb at the bottom of the Sea of Souls or whatever. And set the three hour time limit so Byrold will definately win.

It must be within three hours, (so that the challenge doesn't last 100 years or something silly) and the first to achieve it wins! It's a tough one for sure.

Finding an obscure cause and exploiting it is certainly an option though! :D

This DP is Byrold's reaction, so please feel free to suggest other possible actions... (run away, say he has a headache, appeal to the crowd, start crying etc. etc...)
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dinranwen
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Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:00 pm    Post subject:  

Bryold's reaction could help in the challenge itself. Ask the crowd for an idea of how they think the kingship should be determined. Then do what the crowd suggests.

Quick, Neat, Decisive, seemingly poliete and acknowledgable, plus it solves the problem of Bryold picking a challenge that would be viewed as 'unfair'.
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Chinaren
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Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:19 pm    Post subject:  

Hey y'all, I have updated the maps at the top of this thread with new maps (and new countries).
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D-Lotus
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Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:20 pm    Post subject:  

I like it! Lovely! :D
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Chinaren
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Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:08 pm    Post subject:  

A bucket load of ideas for this one. Poll is up, so vote away!
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Smee
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Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:05 am    Post subject:  

I've gone for "A fight, but use a bit of magic first, to even things up.".

This is, a fight involving swords, so he can use the royal sword - he needs all the 'enhancement' to his fighting skills he can get.

A bit of our own Magic, and a magic sword - double help to get this sorted as soon as possible.

Happy Writing. :)
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Jack_D.Mented
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Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:45 am    Post subject:  

I went for riddle myself. Perhaps he knows an obscure one, taught to him by a mentor in magic school or one that only a tried and true royal would know the key to?

It's worth a gamble.
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LordoftheNight
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Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:57 am    Post subject:  

Wow - we're a decisive lot.
I went for ignoring the challenge completely, because I'm in more of an 'evil facist dictator' kinda mood today.
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Chinaren
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Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:04 pm    Post subject:  

Woo, this one is close!
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D-Lotus
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Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:07 pm    Post subject:  

dinranwen wrote: Bryold's reaction could help in the challenge itself. Ask the crowd for an idea of how they think the kingship should be determined. Then do what the crowd suggests.

Quick, Neat, Decisive, seemingly poliete and acknowledgable, plus it solves the problem of Bryold picking a challenge that would be viewed as 'unfair'.

China, I do believe you've forgotten din's suggestion. I think its a good idea and would like to vote for it.
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Chinaren
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Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:58 pm    Post subject:  

Well, I did consider that suggestion, but I eventually decided not to include it for several reasons:

There were already a lot of suggestions, and experience shows that usually ends up in a 6 way tie.

I didn't feel that a king (to be)would do that. A leader has to show confidence and decisivness. Asking people what to do could be seen as a sign of indecision and possibly weakness.

It would have meant figuring out what the crowd would suggest, and that meant thinking of an option, which is what we have already been doing!
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Alegria
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Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:37 am    Post subject:  

Magic, says I.

Great story, by the way.
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Chinaren
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Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:16 pm    Post subject:  

I will be starting the new chapter in a day or so, so get your votes in quick, if you haven't already.

This could turn out to be quite a major plot decision actually.
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Chinaren
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:31 pm    Post subject:  

Polling is closed. I have started a new chapter, so expect it here soon!

Thanks for all your suggestions and comments.
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