City of IF

PopeAlessandrosXVIII · Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:43 pm Post subject: Love vs Lust

Alright! It's time again for the IF Quirer Discussion thread! This time it's on the subject of Love vs Lust when writing.

I can't say this for everyone, but most people enjoy at least a little romance in their reading material. A kiss here, a declaration of love there, it's all gravey. But when does it become too much? When does romance become porn? Can you have sex in a plot without it being "For adult's eyes only"?

Also, what defines romantic love for you in a story? Just because a guy "loves" a girl in the plot, does this automaticly make it romantic love?

And lastly, the two sides of the coin. Where one side is the loving bonds of friendship, and the other, the primal need for another's bare flesh. Can they be combined, or by their very nature, must they remain apart?

The posts here will be featured in the next edition of the IF Quirer! Please contribute your thoughts, and let your words flow!

Cyberworm · Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:29 am Post subject:

Heya! :D To start this discussion, I would like say that there is a multitude of types of love, with some more prominent examples like;

Love of a mother/father for her/his child,
Love bordering with habits (I love to have her around, I love chocolate etc.),
Love towards a specific person, which also has it's offshots,
Unconditional and unselfish love,

And many more. The thing about writing is that the reader can only get what is written in and between the lines, and nothing more. So you as the writer can concentrate on the physical details (which requires great taste and skill to balance the romance/eroticism), or you can focus on the emotional/energetic interaction during intercourse between the characters. So it can basically be any of the loves I listed, or some of the ones I didn't. Social interaction has a vast pool of subtleties, and writing about it even more so.

The border between lust and love is all in the mind of the character and the portrait of him/her as the writer makes it. Lust requires the body, but sometimes the mind as well. On the other hand, love doesn't neccessarily require the physical, although it can be supplemented with it and flourish even more. When it comes to writing it, it all depends on the writer and his or her respective skills regarding the art of wordsmithing. :)

HalfEmptyHero · Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:06 am Post subject:

There is no love, no true love at least. Man is a cowardly creature, and the thing he fears above all else is change. Once he finds a compatible companion he stays, and seeks comfort in the mundane over the unknown. How many, upon hearing of their partners departure, cry to the heavens? How many heave themselves from the highest cliffs, or end it all in one final bang? Do not most go on living, often times finding another compatible creature to grow old with?

Love, like war, has been romanticized to a point of non-existence. The poets, the artists, and the musicians—they have woven metaphors far deeper than love can handle. It drowns, a product of it's own hyperbole. And we are left alone, threatened by solace so much that we would sell our freedom for comfort.

Speaking on the subject of romance in writing, I prefer to keep sex out of it. I may allude to it, but rarely feel the need to spell it out. Pornography is not art, it serves a far different purpose. Why must a writer dumb it down to the point where there is nothing left to imagine? It just becomes vulgar and tasteless. There are rare places where I find it acceptable, but they are few and far between.

No, a love between a guy and a girl doesn't have to be sexual, although it usually is. As love is really just a rejection to change, as I previously stated, there is nothing stopping a man from loving a woman as he loves his sister.

The problem with sex and friendship is society; the peoples of the world, or at least most of them, have come to a common consensus that love and sex walk hand in hand. As children we are conditioned to this unwritten rules, brainwashed to an extent. That is why a person is usually unable to separate emotion from sex.

Vikas Muralidharan · Joined: 29 Aug 2010 Posts: 600

I agree with most of what HEH said. However, I dont agree with his first sentence. It should be put as (IMO) : Love exists, True love is extremely rare.

The point I would like to make that is a novel, most of the "love stories" you hear are actually about lust. Its even worse Rap/Hip Hop. I would say it all depends on hove the writer writes I guess really. If the sentences is "She had tow beautiful eyes", it MIGHT be love... whereas if it is "She has two beautiful t*ts" its DEFINITELY lust :P

True love happens a lot more in fiction over here, where the hero is described as Super handsome and the heroine is "uglier than a monkey" (in the heroes own words). But true love apparently blossoms between these two. **shrughs** Its a matter of perspective too, I guess

Vikas Muralidharan · Joined: 29 Aug 2010 Posts: 600

In Reply to the questions.

I dont think you can do that. A sex scene in a novel is always gonna be adult. Nothing you can do about it unless you want to make it lame by just saying : "They slept together". Seriously, no feeling at all then.

For me, more descriptive romance automatically becomes more romantic. The "love" in Dan Brown's Angels and Demons is hardly romantic to me, because I hardly see the romance. It gets obvious at places but again, I feel the art of using words to describe a feeling really beautifully takes special skill. Take "P.S, I love You" for eg. I know, the "hero" dies before the story starts, but that is one real romantic story.

I dont think you can get "true" friendship and a desire for flesh in the same relationship. Its either one or the other. My honest feeling is it cant be both. THAT combination would be REALLY rare.

PopeAlessandrosXVIII · Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:38 am Post subject: Poke

This is just a little poke, reminding eveyone of this month's IF Quirer Discussion! I hope to see some activity heres~

Thunderbird · Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Love vs Lust

PopeAlessandrosXVIII wrote: I can't say this for everyone, but most people enjoy at least a little romance in their reading material. A kiss here, a declaration of love there, it's all gravey. But when does it become too much? When does romance become porn? Can you have sex in a plot without it being "For adult's eyes only"?
It becomes too much when it becomes an unnecessary footnote that detracts from the flow of the plotwork. It becomes too much when it breaches the overall tone of the tale. Sometimes you can get away with it and it becomes a meaningful addition to the story, and some stories downright require it based on the themology in use throughout. But I often find sex scenes delivered when unnecessary just for shock value and that seems to be where it goes too far.
Romance becomes porn when the method of delivery begins focusing more on the physical play-by-play as if its a combat scene rather than an exploration of the feelings involved.
You can have sex in a plot without it being for adults only but only IF it is left more to the imagination and insinuated more than explicit.

Quote: Also, what defines romantic love for you in a story? Just because a guy "loves" a girl in the plot, does this automaticly make it romantic love?
Communication and bonding and finding the need for each other in their lives IN ADDITION to some lustful tension is what makes the formula just right for romance. An author must deliver some cause for the emotional bond to really deliver romantic love in the story. This is where the movie Thor fell down a bit. It didn't seal enough cause for bonding before they were 'madly' in love with each other.

Quote: And lastly, the two sides of the coin. Where one side is the loving bonds of friendship, and the other, the primal need for another's bare flesh. Can they be combined, or by their very nature, must they remain apart?
It is WHEN they are combined that we have romance, no? It is most certainly possible for there to be plutonic relations between men and women that are nevertheless very strong and very close. At the same time, it is equally possible for there to be raw and pure lust with little other value in the relationship. Often, one can open the door for the other... thus why some may find themselves so jealous of their partners when they see a plutonic relationship developing. And sometimes what begins as Lust alone can just as easily progress to something much deeper - sex tends to have a bonding effect that leads down that road.

PopeAlessandrosXVIII · Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:24 pm Post subject: Post

*Bows* I thank you for your insights! I'm glad this thread is getting some attention. I wasn't sure if the subject was too, hos shall I say, personal for most people.

Shillelagh · Joined: 11 Mar 2010 Posts: 398 Location: Kansas

Quote: I can't say this for everyone, but most people enjoy at least a little romance in their reading material. A kiss here, a declaration of love there, it's all gravy.

I'm actually not a big fan of romance put into other genres of literature. If it's a part of the plot, or a part of the author's intent, I'm usually okay with it. That being said, I hate the unspoken expectation that two main characters of the opposite gender must fall in love and get married by the end of the book/series. It's impossible for them to just be close friends or good buddies; nope, they gotta fall in love. The mainstream audience thinks that love makes a happy ending, and so you gotta throw it in. Half of the time, the author doesn't even get the chance to fully develop it- it just happens. The HP series is a great example of this in my mind: You don't really see Ron/Hermione develop- it just happens. You barely get Harry/Ginny, and any of the other relationships are just lip-service plot devices.

Quote: But when does it become too much? When does romance become porn? Can you have sex in a plot without it being "For adult's eyes only"?

Censorship-wise, sex in a plot makes it adult-only. It doesn't make it bad, it doesn't make it porn- but it makes it too mature for young audiences. If you don't describe the sex, you're okay... but then, it's not really sex anymore, is it?

Quote: Also, what defines romantic love for you in a story? Just because a guy "loves" a girl in the plot, does this automaticly make it romantic love?

It is been my general understanding that a writer capable of true romantic love is a specialist, and they are seldom able to write anything else. On a similar note, authors who are skilled at a specific genre are seldom able to successfully write romantic love. You can make some nice friendships, and have a wedding or post-marriage life in and epilogue... but the actual romance seldom happens.

Quote: And lastly, the two sides of the coin. Where one side is the loving bonds of friendship, and the other, the primal need for another's bare flesh. Can they be combined, or by their very nature, must they remain apart?

Honestly, the fact that you're calling it a coin sums it up pretty nicely. You can never see both of them at a time, but they are undeniably related to each other.

PopeAlessandrosXVIII · Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:04 am Post subject: Poke

Just giving this a little poke! There's a little over one week left before the IF Quirer comes out, and I'd love some more thoughts on this Discussion!

misterbiz · Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: Love vs Lust

PopeAlessandrosXVIII wrote:

I can't say this for everyone, but most people enjoy at least a little romance in their reading material. A kiss here, a declaration of love there, it's all gravey. But when does it become too much? When does romance become porn? Can you have sex in a plot without it being "For adult's eyes only"?

I mostly agree with T on this front. It becomes porn when the sex is merely gratuitous. If it others nothing to the story and detracts from it instead then it is pointless. Also if it becomes merely a graphic depiction of sex instead of exploring anything emotional or anything else then it is simply erotica (porn is technically videos and pictures).

Quote: Also, what defines romantic love for you in a story? Just because a guy "loves" a girl in the plot, does this automaticly make it romantic love?

No. Just because love is there does not mean it is romantic. I love my best friend but that doesn't not mean that it is romantic, even though we are of opposite genders. Love is tricky and there are many different types of it. Romantic love is one of a kind, developed from a bond of some sort. A true emotional bond that has a bit of lust strewn through it.

Quote: And lastly, the two sides of the coin. Where one side is the loving bonds of friendship, and the other, the primal need for another's bare flesh. Can they be combined, or by their very nature, must they remain apart?

They can be combined quite well. It is possible to feel lust and love toward's a good friend....trust me...I have dealt with this issue through 3/4ths of my high school career. And personally, in a romance I would like to see something like that, because to me it is quite relatable and close to reality. As is the common friends with benefits, which is not a bad relationship to have, for a short lived time. Long-term it crashes and burns. Again, trust me.