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What makes for a good decision point?

 
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:48 pm    Post subject: What makes for a good decision point? Reply with quote

I've noticed that some decision points within storygames don't seem to lead to much discussion even if people seem to like the story, whereas others seem to generate a lot more activity (even passion). I'd like to talk about what it is about a decision point that makes for a rich and interesting player discussion.

One hypothesis is that the debate is richer when the decision has a moral aspect to it. In one of the recent Thorns and Steel chapters, Denad had to decide whether to beat up a young punk. The character and decision were not really central to the overall, but the debate about what to do was still one of the most active threads we've had, possibly because that decision had a strong moral component.

Any thoughts?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or something people have different views on...like: explain a lot about two political parties, both not good or bad, then let them decide which party the character will join. We should have many different answers. I know for one, I always try to suggest something different....
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, we're still feeling out the decision points. To keep the experience diverse, we are pretty much open to leave almost anything up to the players. The only thing we won't let them vote on are the Meta-decisions, such as what happens next, who does X turn out to be, or where is the hidden whatchamathing? But decisions that have a defining effect on who the character is, does definitely seem to stir up more debate than, north or south? for example.

I suspect this has a lot to do with why it is the same within a roleplay situation. Our character is our connection to the story, our view on the game's world. We get in their skin and become attached to them in the most basic of ways by asking 'What if I were this guy? What would I do?'

When playing a character, I take as much caution and care (or in some cases more), with how they are seen as I would with my own life. I spend most of the time agonizing over the decisions that speak for the character's - well, character.

In the Storygames, this just takes the form of people discussing and debating, instead of one person thinking long and hard on it. So I think that definitely touches a nerve.

But not every poll can be about who our characters are. Some of them just have to impact the storyline and/or plot, or the storygame fails to function. This gets hairy, because not every choice can be interesting. And then there are stretches of the story in which it becomes difficult to introduce a storypoint without literally having to manufacture one, just for the sake of there being one. This is why Thorns and Steel runs so long from one chapter to the next - to deliberately avoid this kind of contrived serialization.

So... what makes a good decision point? I'm not sure I have an easy answer. But emotional content is definitely one answer; lacking that, my best answer would be to leave it open and go to the players. Sometimes there just isn't an a/b/c choice that is evident. When this happens, or you can not make up your mind about what the choices should be, usually this means that there is enough tension in the situation to result in good choices and you are just too close to see them clearly. By going to the players and asking for suggestions, you kind of get back in touch with the pulse of the story and find out what the players hold important - which can't help but make for good decision points.

I'd say more, but I don't want to muddle the issue.

- My two cents Dept.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reiso wrote:
But not every poll can be about who our characters are. Some of them just have to impact the storyline and/or plot, or the storygame fails to function. This gets hairy, because not every choice can be interesting. And then there are stretches of the story in which it becomes difficult to introduce a storypoint without literally having to manufacture one, just for the sake of there being one. This is why Thorns and Steel runs so long from one chapter to the next - to deliberately avoid this kind of contrived serialization.


Very interesting thoughts.

Chapter length could be a whole topic by itself. When I first started, I deliberately kept my chapters short (1000-1500 words) for two reasons: 1) I thought that people would be more likely to read them, and 2) I wanted to give the players more of a sense of ownership of the character by having them make decisions as often as possible. The Archer's Flight is only about 21,000 words, and it took 17 chapters to tell. I tried to make them all interesting, but as you might imagine, some of them turned out to be pretty minor (or just multiple versions of the same decision, which unfortunately is kind of happening now in the Ram/Fish That Walked).

After reading Thorns and Steel, I'm not sure that I had the right approach. The chapters there are very long, and definitely pass by potential decision points that could have generated discussion. But I don't feel like I miss them. The story carries me along, and I'm happy to keep reading until I reach the decision point at the end.

So I don't know. Maybe every decision point can be about the character, and the solely plot-driven ones could be just written by the author. I can imagine players might get upset if the author had the character do something really stupid or crazy, but if the author acted reasonably and didn't make crucial character-forming decisions for the players, but only plot-driven, tactical ones, maybe no one would care whether or not they got to decide north or south.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Key wrote:
So I don't know. Maybe every decision point can be about the character, and the solely plot-driven ones could be just written by the author. I can imagine players might get upset if the author had the character do something really stupid or crazy, but if the author acted reasonably and didn't make crucial character-forming decisions for the players, but only plot-driven, tactical ones, maybe no one would care whether or not they got to decide north or south.


Since the storygame is the author's baby (if you want to say that of course), I guess we sort of have any unsaid right to choose a decent decision point. Also if you have already thought over your story past that point, whats the use of stopping there when your thinking juices are flowing strong?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ravenwing wrote:
If you have already thought over your story past that point, whats the use of stopping there when your thinking juices are flowing strong?


Hmm. Well, I wouldn't recommend that an author should write more just because they have a strong idea of where the story should go. In my storygames I'm almost always thinking of the story beyond the decision point, but I like it when an unexpected player decision causes me to re-think. I was just saying that maybe the author could skip decision points that are more about the plot rather than the character.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe a good decision point would mean a point where a bad choice could spell a more tense storyline, a sudden plot twist or maybe even, if it's a foolish idea, get a main character killed.

But hey, that's my opinion.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Key wrote:
Hmm. Well, I wouldn't recommend that an author should write more just because they have a strong idea of where the story should go. In my storygames I'm almost always thinking of the story beyond the decision point, but I like it when an unexpected player decision causes me to re-think. I was just saying that maybe the author could skip decision points that are more about the plot rather than the character.


You are mistaken. I didn't mean that there is only one way of thinking for the author. I meant that author should know what the basic plotline is, and I mean real basic, as in an idea of what the ending should be like. It is sort of like a maze I guess. You have one beginning, but there are several ways to reach the end. That is my metaphor for this whole storygaming business.

As the author, we're wandering through a maze looking for an exit. And the people give the input are the little guides that help us reach our exit. Yes, we may falther and get a bit lost and maybe gain distance on our own, but those unexpected decision chosen by others, helps us figure out another way to the end.

I hope that makes sense.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ravenwing wrote:
As the author, we're wandering through a maze looking for an exit. And the people give the input are the little guides that help us reach our exit. Yes, we may falther and get a bit lost and maybe gain distance on our own, but those unexpected decision chosen by others, helps us figure out another way to the end.


That's a very interesting metaphor. That's very much how I go into a storygame - I usually have an ending in mind, and a couple of different possible paths to get there, and I want to see which one the players choose, or if they choose some other way to reach that ending.

But once I start playing things don't usually work out that way. Players don't just suggest pathways through the maze; they start knocking down walls and making new exits. In every storygame I've told on the site, I've had an ending in mind when I started, and in every one the storygame has taken a sharp turn in an unexpected direction which has led to a completely different ending.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Key wrote:
That's very much how I go into a storygame - I usually have an ending in mind, and a couple of different possible paths to get there, and I want to see which one the players choose, or if they choose some other way to reach that ending.

But once I start playing things don't usually work out that way. Players don't just suggest pathways through the maze; they start knocking down walls and making new exits.


This is the knife-edge that you're trying to balance on here (and in RPGs, as well). If the author (or GM) already has the ending to the story and there's no potential for it to change, then the players, at some point, no matter what they propose or suggest, are going to be railroaded toward that ending. And the interactivity is largeyl gone.

On the other hand, if the players are free to send the story wandering this way and that way, completely off the reservation, then it's virtually impossible to tell a cohesive, compellling tale, and any pretense of preserving tools like foreshadowing and connected themes is out the window.

I don't think either Key or Ravenwing has it wrong: the author needs to have a strong sense of where a story is going in order to write something interesting. It's just that the "strong sense of where the story is going" changes with each decision point.

I'm just getting into this storygame business, but I don't think we've seen the answer to what makes a good decision point yet. Cheracter-defining decisions are obviously central and important, but how many times can we redefine the character during the course of a story? I think plot-driven decisions (and even meta-decisions) can be compelling as well, but only if the readers have some understanding of the significance of the choices. "Go north or south" doesn't cut it unless we understand that going north means trying to accomplish x while risking y, while abandoning z. There's a decision early in "Thorns and Steel" that's exactly a north/south decision, but it's really a decision about setting the priorities of our adventurers (ok, so maybe that makes it a character decision). In other stories, the north/south decisions seem essentially random, since we don't know enough about what the decision signifies.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that a good decision point should have both positive and negative qualities to it. The negative aspects make the story more character driven, since it either goes against their morals or their preferences. Very Happy

I like what everyone had to say about it, I'm just adding my own thought. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Decision points....

When this discussion came out first time I stayed out, I wasn't writing a storygame then and didn't know how difficult it was.

Now I've had the joy of all the problems you guys have stated. Smile

Flicking through some of mine I see quite a variety. I've attempted the classic a) b) c) and also character-based and an experimental one asking for battle plans.

The last one was fun, I got some really good feedback and a wide variety of different options.

I also notice some of the ones I remember not being so happy about. I was floundering for a point, and the timescale I was on at the time didn't allow for me to just continue writing until a better chance came a long. They were contrived for the situation rather than being led to, which I didn't like. They've happened in Gorin's chapters too.

But sometimes they worked. Surprises can happen in stories, they often do. Thorns and Steel has already shown that a North or South can work.

I think I've escaped some of the difficulties though because from the start this story didn't really begin with me. It was a product of quite a few citizens when the world for 'Battle to the End' was created.

I think I was also helped by having read this discussion before starting. As such I knew not to be too attached to a plot, or direction because chances are it wouldn't get there, or in fact, anything like it.

So when starting a storygame my only solid ideas were to tell two stories from opposites sides of a magical war, to use the BttE world, and set it in the past to try and create a history that would eventually lead to modern BttE times.

I had two maze start points, and I had a very hazy finish. I think so far this has worked well, allowing the readers to build the walls inside through the circumstances their decisions lead them.

Only time will tell though whether it can be guided to an adequate ending with so rough a starting plan. I hope it works, as if such a plan doesn't work, then regardless whether the decision points work or not, a new plan will have to be made.


I don't know why I didn't at the time, but I could have posted my comments earlier based on reading decision points.

As a reader the best decision points are when the options are genuinely plausable possibilities. It's only then that different readers can be just as adamant their idea is best and cause a stir in a discussion.

Stoat's decision points in No Good Deed offer massive variety, and lots of voters flock to them. There the opinion swaying and discussion switches to which is more amusing to read and are very successful.

I think our quest for a good decision point is definately progressing well as the city grows.

Happy Writing Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that with my decision points, what the protaginist does won't change what goes on outside of the story.

No matter which decision they make, the other characters of the story will still attempt to carry out their own objectives, not interferring with the main character unless they're forced to.

I have seen some stories though, in which the readers decide what happens next as a decision point, not what the protaginist chooses to do - for instance - choosing which character was shot - though normally that's not something that you could actually effect.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lordofthenight wrote:
I have seen some stories though, in which the readers decide what happens next as a decision point, not what the protaginist chooses to do - for instance - choosing which character was shot - though normally that's not something that you could actually effect.


Those are the meta-decisions Reiso mentioned above. In my first SG I had both, and found that the broader "what happens next" doesn't work as well, generate as much discussion, or seem to make the reader feel as involved as the narrower, character focused decision points do.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm, for me D-points are a bit of an enigma...

I don't plan one out before I've started writing the chapter (I don't really plan chapters anyway, so that's a bit irrelevant) but when it comes to it, I've had lot's of different ones. I often try not to have it as the set ones, hoping someone will suggest something sensible (which usually happens Wink ). But sometimes you need to have a set D-point, as you need focus for a while. I see no problem with it as long as people don't always rely on it, as that would make a story too linear to be a proper SG. And the same goes for really open ones; if an author solely uses open ones he's/she's not putting much thought into his chapter's and thier transition points, unfairly relying on his/her readers to come up with everything for them. A balance is required. Very Happy

And there's my two grubby cents... :biggrin:
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know. D-Points for me just come sometimes. Other times it's the focus I have for the end. But I think for it to be good all the stuff before has to be balanced enough to help the readers decide on the next chapter.

Not to be offensive, but sometimes I don't understand some storygames, where the author offers some choices, but all the stuff before it doesn't help the reader decide on a choice. Then I again, that goes for me also, since I haven't had many storygames up since joining. Practice makes perfect is what they say.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smee wrote:
Stoat's decision points in No Good Deed offer massive variety, and lots of voters flock to them. There the opinion swaying and discussion switches to which is more amusing to read and are very successful.


I agree. Some of the most effective decision points I've seen are in No Good Deed, where the players decide how Elladora grants someone's wish. Not only do they give rise to plausible alternatives that people have fun debating, but they're very open-ended and give lots of room for player creativity.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Stoat hit the jackpot with those DPs. You know what they will be, but there is plently of scope for ideas.

Actually, I use DPs when I write, it is the main thing that has helped me keep going!

Generally BEFORE I start writing the chapter I know what the DP (roughly) will be, and I can work towards that goal, writing wise.

If I don't have a DP worked out beforehand my chapters tend to 'wander' a bit, and then I have to try and fit a DP in. The times I have done that, the DPs have often been (I have thought) the less imaginative ones, such as this way or that way? Having said that, some of those generate more discussion than I expect, which all goes to show: You can never tell.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True enough, china. I think it is the nature of the author whether to have an idea of a DP or not beforehand. I tend to do one or the either usually. And like you said, the ones rushed in tend to be ones where there is less discussion, but you know what, sometimes that happens.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I'm totally skimming the posts here due to time constraint, so if its been said, I apologize, but here's one important quality to a decision point so far as I have seen:

The players MUST be able to weigh the pros and cons of the decision point. Even if they haven't been spelled out to the players, they must be weighable. Some decision points are difficult to work with from a player perspective because there isn't enough information available to make a decision. This is extremely difficult in fantasy, when the world is so foreign, but not so hard with modern, or within the framework of things we can assume.

I'll probably say more on the topic later, but again... time... ack.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think someone else referred to that idea. A lot of storygames need to work on making sure each choice for the DP has an equal chance at winning. That means that the chapter itself has to have enough information to move the plot, yet also be open and debatable enough to decide on what to do in the next chapter. Very hard to do I might add, especially for those who have problems reaching a decision point in a few pages.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes DP's exasperate me, as they destroy the whole flow of the story. But usually, DP's give me some space to breath and even help me manage writing time. On these occasions, the readers help me brainstorm. It offers me new ideas, fresh plots. It actually helps me move the story with new meaning. On some levels I'm thankful to DP's, but it is often annoying when readers pick something that doesn't have as much potential.

What works best, from what I've observed, is a set type of DP's, like No Good Deed's. Unfortunately, this is often boring and unnatural in the story for the author, so the author has to fluctuate.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D-Lotus wrote:
On some levels I'm thankful to DP's, but it is often annoying when readers pick something that doesn't have as much potential.


One thing to keep in mind is that as the author, you don't necessarily need to put every suggestion in the poll. Leaving out a poll option because you don't think it will lead to an interesting story is legitimate from my point of view.

(Although, leaving out a poll option because you already have other plans is not, and sometimes that's a fine line to walk...)

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