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#1: The Prodigal Child Author: ethereal_fauna, Location: USA

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:17 pm
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As some of you may have noticed, the wayward child has finally returned. I had a nice vacation, and it’s good to be back. I wanted to just examine a bit why I was lured away, and make a few observations and comparisons.

I was away playing World of Warcraft, still do play, just not as many hours on end as before. I enjoy gaming, and I enjoy role play. Warcraft has fantastic lore, and the lore is weaved into the gameplay (although sad to say a lot of the time you have to actually look for it.)

I dare say the majority of Warcraft players aren’t there for the lore, for the story, or for role playing. They want to kill stuff. They want to defeat other players. I enjoy the killing stuff in cooperative groups very much, but the player versus player not so much. It’s a matter of personal preference.

I also enjoy text-based role playing, and forum-based interactive stories- the ‘traditional’ rp where everyone creates their own character to play. Warcraft however opened up new avenues for role play. I created my own character, placed her into this fantastic world with a rich history to it, developed a personal story for my character, and interacted on many levels with other people.

We journeyed through this world, immersed in not only the present events around us shaped from the history and lore- fulfilling quests, going on campaigns and into dungeons created by the developers- but also immersed in personal storylines. I could be the little peg in the bigger machine, or a huge cog fulfilling a role in world-shaping events.

How does this relate to IF?

In times BC (Before warCrack) I was very active on this site. I recall Key remarking how a whole community had sprung up unexpectedly. We had created a city with streets and citizens. I think that was one of the aspects that players wanted. Their own identity and character.

We had a good discussion on roleplaying and storygaming in this thread. Storygaming differs from roleplaying quite a bit, and differs from gaming quite a bit as well. However, the potential is here for a great medium to develop, akin to games like Warcraft, in my humble opinion.

I’ll do a bit of comparison with the devil that lured me away, aka Warcraft, and the City of IF. With Warcraft, I could log on at any time to play. If none of my friends were online to go into a dungeon or on a larger quest, there were plenty of activities to engage in solo. We also have that here at IF.

Storychat requires players to be on at a certain time, in a certain place. It’s fun but requires some planning. I liken this to Warcraft raiding (typical of other MMORPGs where you have large groups of 10, 25, 40 people inside a dungeon working together on scripted encounters.)
Storygames are player and author dependent. You play for as long as reading, discussion and voting happens, then wait a time for the author to post and start the whole process again. This is roughly like Warcraft group questing, where some parts you can complete alone, and others with small groups of two to five people. Or like Warcraft group role play, where you use text chat bubbles to carry on a conversation and/or engage in activities inside the game world.
Linear stories, word games and the like can be done just about any time. Word games require more than one person, but are short and move quickly. This is the general monster slaying, gathering of materials and working on professions that occurs in MMORPGs.
Traditional RP is similar to player versus player. You have to have more than one person there, but it’s turned based and dynamic.

Sadly this site is still slow on activity. That was one reason for my departure…writing a storygame for a player base of three or four. And of the three or four, little discussion happened. What can be done to correct this?

I recognize that part of the issue is due to the writing. Some decision points simply have limited options, or a narrow scope of logical choices. The storygames that were a lot of fun for me, had several readers, and varied ideas of what the ‘character’ was like because of the number of readers. It was usually easier to come up with several options for the author when there were differing ideas on ‘who’ the character really was, and what the character was like.

The Wheel story The Machine’s Daughter was great, and one of the more fun for me to play. The Wheel world is complex, but you could still participate in the story even if you didn’t know all of the Wheel lore.

What I feel I miss out with in storygaming, as compared to other forms of role play like traditional RPing or MMORPGs, is the continuity of character. Instead of advancing one character- my alter ego or other self- through my decisions, words and activities, I’m scattered and disconnected. When I storygame, I am the character in that story (this is a good thing), but when I move on to storychat or word games, it’s all disjointed.

I think there is plenty to do in the City of IF, and that being a bit ‘disjointed’ from activity to activity would be fine so long as the meat of the site, the storygames themselves, are being posted and played consistently and enthusiastically.

#2: Author: Alegria, Location: On the beaches with Dr. Suess' Sneeches. Only the star-bellied ones, of course.

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:19 pm
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You make some very interesting points Fauna. I, like many of the other "older" citizens, have also noticed that the city is in a slump. I had hoped that if I left for a while, things would be more active, and I was very active when I came back meeting new people and learning "characters," but now I know most everyone.

That is why I played Furcadia so much. There you have an imaginitive, continuing story line and a character you work on. If your certain story dies, just make a new character. That's what made the entire game fun, the continuous character.

However, we must keep in mind that Storygaming is not, nor did it ever pass itself off as, Furcadia or Warcraft.

Here there are no continuing characters or quick, real time responses (unless you are in Storychat or have sequel stories)

What is missing for me in the City these days is participation. It would seem that most SGs "snuff out" after 3 or 4 chapters. This is disheartening to other writers and readers.

What I'm trying to say is: Let's get some participation going in something other than games!

#3: Author: Guest,

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:07 pm
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Furcadia, is it that animal thing. I'm sure I have palyed it made a lot of friends there, well atleast one good friend, then the thing threw problems, as I know many writers get problems aswell. Putting up a thread to cope with writers block would work well if there are a thread then add a few stuff to it. In world of warcraft I had met alot of people told them of cityofif and I'm not sure if any had come, since they were more people who likes action like arcades and mystery. They love playing a rpg which is a game inwhich a story is created out of their characters. And then they can also choose what their character does. Just a few pointers on what players loves.

#4: Author: The White Blacksmith,

Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:20 pm
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It seems the main problem with If is participation. People come and they don't stick around because there aren't enough people. We don't get enough people because not enough stick around.

Perhaps we could make a list of people who've disappeared, and their reasons. We could then send someone into the labyrinth of Warcrack with a piece of string and a dagger, in the hope that they can rescue other old Ifians from the minotaur.

#5: Author: The Meaning Of Fear, Location: In a deep, dark corner of the universe, plotting.

Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:07 pm
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Quote:

Perhaps we could make a list of people who've disappeared, and their reasons. We could then send someone into the labyrinth of Warcrack with a piece of string and a dagger, in the hope that they can rescue other old Ifians from the minotaur.

You are mad. That's like trying to catch the last living fish in the sea when the earth has been thrown into a nuclear war.

#6: Author: DeadManWalking,

Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:32 pm
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you know what i think might work as well for getting members?

a recommended reading bar.

Or something along those lines.

I've noticed, that when i check out the who's online, guests are invariably in the Album.

Why they would gravitate to such a little used part of our city, i don't know, but perhaps, we should do something to make them change their focus?

#7: Author: Guest,

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:53 am
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I'll be glad to go into a labirinth of WOW and bring in new characters. I'll go even into medievia it's a mud game I'll bring in a few characters from them. I've been a player for about six years.

#8: Author: Chinaren, Location: https://www.NeilHartleyBooks.com

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:39 am
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This is going to sound harsh, so please forgive me, I mean no offense:

Personally, instead of moaning about how IF is dead, why don't you do something about it?

Activity breeds activity. My Blasphemy story is ranked 1 (equal with Ms. Frogs' excellent tale) probably only because it's updated reasonably frequently*, as with CF's tale, which has moved up the rankings because it's active again.

People aren't going to come here if nothing's happening. You have to think of things, write, create and so forth. It takes effort, sustained effort to make a city live.

My tip:

Don't sit around discussing 'what if we do this...' Just do it!

If you do stuff, they will come.

My 2 Cents

*Not so fast this last week, 'cos I've been dragged away by RL, but more should be coming soon...

#9: Author: The Meaning Of Fear, Location: In a deep, dark corner of the universe, plotting.

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:14 pm
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How much are you getting paid for that motivating and moving speech, C'ren? Razz

#10: Author: DeadManWalking,

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:46 pm
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he does have a point.

But the problem is, for sgames, you need participation.

And if no one suggests, you can't write another chapter.

#11: Author: Crunchyfrog,

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:52 am
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If no-one suggests, you need to establish why that is, and then fix it.

Whether its SG or linear you need to have the commitment to see it through to the end, with regular chapters/instalments of a quality that will keep the readers hooked from start to finish.

Make sure you tell your readers when you plan to poll. Post a reminder a day before the poll goes up, and a day before it closes. Tell your readers when to expect the next chapter, then commit to it. Try to keep the chapters coming at least every 3-4 weeks, and make sure the quality is consistent.

I've just made sure everyone who's posted in this thread so far has access to The Magician's Touch, so you can see how active it is - and of course participate, if you so desire. Very Happy

#12: Author: Chinaren, Location: https://www.NeilHartleyBooks.com

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:14 am
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DeadManWalking wrote:

he does have a point.

But the problem is, for sgames, you need participation.

And if no one suggests, you can't write another chapter.

My first SGame on IF Narg the Nasty had at most, two comments for the first ten or so chapters. I still wrote it though, and slowly it garnered more fans.

The point is... er, I've fogotten, 'cos I'm drunk. Anyway... Write!! And keep writing! Maybe that was my point.

ANd yay! CF advertising. Almost.

#13: Author: Crunchyfrog,

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:18 am
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I learn from the orange master. Stick around and I'll have the poll up in a minute. Laughing

#14: Author: Chinaren, Location: https://www.NeilHartleyBooks.com

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:08 am
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Crunchyfrog wrote:

I learn from the orange master. Stick around and I'll have the poll up in a minute. Laughing

Done and done.

#15: Author: Alegria, Location: On the beaches with Dr. Suess' Sneeches. Only the star-bellied ones, of course.

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:50 am
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*glances at China's post thoughtfully*

An intruiging idea...

#16: Author: D-Lotus, Location: Hollywood, USA

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:33 am
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Usually when I read a storygame, I don't read it anticipating the decision point, because I have grown used to banal DPs that only repeat themselves and don't really offer anything interesting. I remember that I used to be really enthusiastic about the Wheel storygames, 'cause they usually had the best decision points, but now there's not even that.

We need to figure out the art of the decision point and make it more complex. I'm not really sure how this would be carried about, I don't really have any great ideas. The best advice I can offer is that the author him/herself brainstorm the possibilities for their DP before writing the chapter. Make sure that the DP offers a satisfactory number of possibilities for the reader before posting it. Maybe someday somebody will write a storygame-type masterpiece with the ultimate decision points. Imagine if someone wrote Hamlet and then offered us the possibility of whether 'to be or not to be', and then asked us to justify our decision- the debate would be unending, it would offer so many different responses.

For me, if the DPs were as interesting as that, I would definitely contribute more in the discussion.

#17: Author: Key, Location: The Royal Palace

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:08 pm
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Hi all,

Sorry I didn't see this until now. A very good discussion all around.

(and a big welcome back to the Prodigal Child Very Happy

)

I agree with everything that's been said. A few additional points from my perspective:

When I first started storygaming, I wasn't trying to compete with games like WoW. I always recognized that there were certain aspects of that type of game, e.g. graphics, 3D engines, etc., that I couldn't and didn't really want to emulate. But I was hoping that even though it would be a different type of experience, storygaming would be as compelling as those types of games, for a large number of people. And although it is clearly compelling for some of us, it hasn't yet proved as popular or as able to hook people in as those games do.
I think a large part of the reason why is what Fauna said - with those games, you have a single identity which you can own and grow and build, whereas with storygaming, you're a different character in each storygame (which you're sharing with others as well), so your identity is more scattered. I also think that's why the City of IF mythology itself (i.e. the characters and locations in the City) has sprung up and proved so popular, because it does provide a single identity for each person, even those it's not directly relevant to playing in storygames.
I'm still interested in creating a compelling, social, and creative experience, and lately the ways I'm exploring to do that are a little more game-y than storygaming, things that do have the single identity per player to own and build on, but that will hopefully also provide a little more opportunity for creativity and narrative than a game like WoW. Arena was my first attempt at that, and the latest is quif, which I'm continuing to work on quite heavily.
I still think storygaming is a great activity, and I encourage people to keep doing it. I agree with D's comments about decision points. One way to put this idea is that moral decision-making, where the decision is balancing competing values, makes for a more interesting DP and discussion than strategic decision-making, where the decision is to figure out how to reach a predefined goal. For example, probably the liveliest discussion we've had in the Wheel storygames was in response to a decision point in the Machine's Daughter about how the main character would react to an experience where Peran the satyr got her drunk and had sex with her. In a decision like that, there's no clear goal or right answer, it's really about the character deciding what they value.
I agree completely with Chinaren's points on persistence and action. The first Wheel storygames also had very few comments (and because we allowed guest comments then, about half the comments were "this game sucks!"). But I kept going with it, and I'm really glad I did, because this whole site and community would never have existed if I hadn't. This is a lesson for storygaming, and for life: when something is important to you, don't give up, even in the face of rejection and setback.

"The brick walls are there for a reason. The brick walls are not there to keep us out; the brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something."
-- Randy Pausch

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