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Legends, Fables, and Strata-gems: A complete breakdown
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Thunderbird
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:15 pm    Post subject: Legends, Fables, and Strata-gems: A complete breakdown Reply with quote

Greetings Curious Citizens!

Allow me to explain the following new settings for the city currency.

We now have the following currencies:

  • Legends
    • 1 Legend = 25 Fables
    • Legends are earned in Executive and Council Meeting regions as well as by any guildmember posting in the guild halls.
    • They are earned at a rate of 1/post. They do not take into account the length of the post at all.
    • Those who began a thread also earn 1 Legend for each reply.
    • Legends may be exchanged for fables or strata-gems but may not be purchased.
    • Legends may not be used in any form of trade.
    • Legends represent the glory of recognition for deep site participation. They are an earned privelege to hold them and they may be tapped for Fables, if and when you really need to dig deep and are willing to give up some of your 'glory'.


  • Fables
    • The standard currency of the City of IF
    • 1 Fable = 10 Straga-gems
    • Earned primarily by writing and participating in Storygames
    • Base 1 earned for starting a topic.
    • 5 Fables earned for every reply to a topic you've begun.
    • Base 10 for a reply (adjusted to weight more support towards readers/participators)
    • 0.005 earned per character (half what it was recently to balance out other adjustments)
    • Earning Cap per post: now 200 fables. (I found that a 7 page (MS Word) post didn't even cap out so there's a wide range of earnings now possible on your chapter posts.)
    • Fables are the currency of choice for trade in almost all regions of the city except the RP District, where I would like to see Stratagems put more in use.


  • Strata-gems
    • 10 Strata-gems = 1 Fable
    • Completely interchangeable with Fables at the exchange rate.
    • Earned by participation in lighter pursuits, RP, Word Play, Debates, and as a bonus in some storygame areas.
    • Base 25 earned by starting a new post in a Strata-gem earning region to inspire new activities in those areas.
    • 5 earned for the originator of a thread for each reply posted there.
    • .01 per character, the old Fable earnings per character rate to support shorter posts in these affairs.
    • Maximum of 50 earned per post in recognition that in such regions, longer posts than this are generally excessive.
    • Though a lesser currency in the exchange picture, it should be utilized in any 'game style exchange purpose'.


Any questions, comments, concerns?

There is a section that can create a reward for PMs. None of our currencies do this at the moment, but I had though it might be fun to create a Rumors currency that creates a cute reward for active PMing. Feedback on that idea is welcome as well.

There's also the ability to attach a small pic to a currency. Might be fun to have some proposals on those and see how they look when applied.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would you stop people from exchanging fables and strata-gems to buy Legends?

I have noticed that since Legends was introduced all my balances of fables, stratagems and legends are missing from all my posts all around the forum, although I can see everyone else's. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

interesting - I'll look into that

hmm- that's really strange - I don't see any problem there. Any given currency will only show a count in a forum that it can be earned in - could that have created an illusion of this problem? You don't see any of them here in this forum because they aren't earned here. In guilds you'll see the Legends count, in SGs you'll se the Fables count etc... Looking around it seems to be on target so far. lemme know if you're still having trouble there.

There were some options on the mod that allows some settings that should work that way but if they are causing some trouble, would need to adjust it some.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sold on 'Legends' as they're set up at the moment.

I think, with them being earnt as easily as a one-word 'cool' reply in a guild thread it cheapens them and makes them less a measure of your 'glory', and more just another way to amass yet more fables we still struggle to find ways to spend as it is.

If anything, I see something like 'Legends' as being something to be gained via specific activities in the city.

- Submit an article for the next edition of the IfQ that gets used : earn a legend.
- Get a storygame stickied : earn a legend.
- Complete a storygame

You can earn further 'Legends' by having them awarded from other members. Such things that would encourage me to spend 50* fables on purchasing a legend to award someone :

- A great comment on a story
- A great critique
- Run a really good competition that I enjoy
- Start a good discussion
- A chapter/poem that particularly entertains me

This way, to me, Legends have some meaning. They aren't earnt by everyday means, but are a demonstration of someone who has gone above and beyond in various aspects of the city.

Of course, to make such a system viable, it needs to be very easy to use, and as such would probably require some coding, so there's perhaps a 'award a legend' button near people's names when they post, so someone can easily click it and it automatically debits them 50fables from their account and adds the legend to the awardee.

Just my 2p Smile

* 50, so that we actually have something, finally, that causes fables to exit the system, rather than just endlessly creating more. People can still 'cash' in Legends for 25 if they're desperate for more fables.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree with Smee on this as Legends should be something like a Commendation or a Merit as it should be something that has to be earned and not given freely
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thunderbird wrote:
interesting - I'll look into that

hmm- that's really strange - I don't see any problem there. Any given currency will only show a count in a forum that it can be earned in - could that have created an illusion of this problem? You don't see any of them here in this forum because they aren't earned here. In guilds you'll see the Legends count, in SGs you'll se the Fables count etc... Looking around it seems to be on target so far. lemme know if you're still having trouble there.

There were some options on the mod that allows some settings that should work that way but if they are causing some trouble, would need to adjust it some.


I understand that the actual balances don't show up in forums where they're not earned, but you still get a list of available currencies. In the attached pic, the whole lot has gone for me, and it is the same in currency earning forums. Note it still shows for you.



I'm also not sold on Legends - neither on the way they're set up or the ethos behind them.

Glory needs to be earned - and that sits with the Awards section, I think. I also noticed that Legends can be earned in Crit Corner - which I'm not sure was supposed to happen.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Impulsive with the currencies much? Wink

I think you may have hit on something great, TB: the basic notion of trading fables for 'merits'. Using one's fables to recognize the participation of others on the site in the form of awards/points/Legends and thus building social capital is an excellent idea.

However, Smee has made some good points about the flaws of the current system. I don't think the way it is setup now encourages genuine social recognition.

I think this should have been previously discussed before being implemented, in order to iron out some flaws. It might need re-conceptualizing before it is fit to work as a viable system.

By the way, when is the success/failure of the Strate-gem system up for discussion?
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really like the idea of legends, but they do seem to be leaning towards those who start a lot of stories, rather than those who perhaps read, comment and help instead, or only write a few, very long-running stories. Smee's idea seems like it would help with this.

We do, of course, still have trophies that can be awarded for a great comment, idea or chapter, though I can't for the life of me remember how to award them ( I think it involves begging Chinny, so it was probably one of his grand fable-earning schemes). Perhaps we could include a count under your profile picture of how many trophies you have? Not tradable for fables, just to let people know, as currently you can't see people's trophies without specifically going to their profile.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I get what's being said here.

But what would you have assigned to Guild Posts then? Fables? Stratagems? Nothing? The concept was originally solution to THAT problem. The way it has been received suggests taking the concept in an entirely new direction, which is cool, but if we do, it leaves the original quandry. Do we assign fable awards to Guild Posts or do we give them Strats? Or both? Or something else?

To THIS I wonder if we should initiate a whole new concept, a currency that only moderators may award. THAT is something that can be done.

Yes, D, openly discuss whatever you wish on these subjects.

And Crunchy- that's truly baffling. Everyone shows all three to me here. Additionally, there's no control in the cash mod panel that even suggests that I could eliminate one user from the cash mod. I'm truly baffled on that matter.
And yeah, I figured Crit Corner could use the boost and they seemed to fit the bill. That's your dept though so if you'd like that changed, I understand.

Keep in mind - the way they are set up now highly favors those who create activity in special access rooms such as the guilds. The greatest rewards, over time, are not derived from your individual posts, but from getting replies on the threads you've begun.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be more than okay with using fables for guild posts. Well, frankly, I'm indifferent regarding the currency system as a whole. But seeing as the worth of the fable is in doubt, and the worth of the stratagem is even less so... adding yet another currency seems silly. Not good, not bad, just... silly. It's an interesting idea, but I just don't see why we need it. You've been making a lot of changes around here... and a lot of them are pretty nifty. It just feels like you're caught up in your momentum sometimes. Stop, take a breath, and ask yourself 'why?' The guilds are awesome. I think they'll build a fair amount of camaraderie. This? I'm not feeling it.

The idea of a currency offered at a flat rate regardless of word count is interesting, but in my mind that prevents it from being easily traded with other currencies. Once the guilds get moving, making a post in a guild forum won't be a hard thing to do at all. Certainly, it won't be an epic achievement. You made a post in a forum you paid to access. Whoo. Certainly it doesn't seem worth 25 fables. I barely make 10 fables per my average posts- and I'm not about to get more verbose in guild posts.

I'm also bothered by the fact that I get "1 legends" per post, though I'm not sure you can easily fix the singular/plural issue there.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I did consider this for about 2 weeks before implementing. And I figured too that by implementing, I'd get the needed feedback immediately.

Perhaps the biggest complaint here is that the Legend would be worth too much? Perhaps it should be 10, not 25 fables?

This whole matter would have been solved by fables alone IF I could simply adjust the fable rewards by forum. Since Fables are given at predefined rate, and each forum is only allowed a yes/no on participation, these secondary currencies allow for restructuring of awards in other forums.

IRT the stratagems, I HATE seeing no award on game posts and such but would detest just as equally if the same bonuses for storygaming were given there.

IRT the Legend, I want to spur citizens into being something more than just participants in the site and was thinking this might help.

I do understand the growing irritation with overcomplexity however. But it does seem to me to be 'silly' to have so many ways to apply our cashmod and limiting it to one streamlined on/off currency.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it would me much easier for me to accept all of these if they were all varying forms of fables instead of different currencies with different uses given for doing different things. My main problem with Legends is that it sounds very epic, but it's given away very easily. If the other currencies exist to still give fables away while controlling the ratio... could we change the name to reflect that? Would it be too inelegant to have guild fables, fables, and chat fables? Gables, Fables, and Chables? ...Yeah, that's a little weird. But... yeah. I dunno. I'm rambling.

I was rambling in my earlier post, too, though I doubt you took it personally. ^_^;
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we need to figure out what these currencies are for before anything else is done. I don't care at all about fables; I am neither motivated to earn them nor to spend them. This makes 3 currencies that I have no reason to earn. Sure, some people get creative and pay fables to other people for making sigs and such, but that's not enough. There needs to be something concrete, something provided by IF. I'm not sure what that is, but as of right now I don't think I have ever used a fable.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's still a great idea, and I don't think anything really needs changing. I just think if we add an ability to give people legends, that will boost it up a bit. Say someone starts a really good storygame, gets loads of interest and loads of replies, then they get lots of legends. And that's good. But if someone starts another, also really good, storygame yet for whatever reason it doesn't get a lot of interest, they won't receive as many legends and people looking at the legend count wouldn't be as impressed. Here, it would be useful to have the ability to give someone legends. Those few readers could (if they think the story is good enough) give legends for it, and all would be happy.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea of Legends as universal awards that can be stockpiled. As a measure of merit and recognition on the site that can be awarded to those who've accomplished something (first on the list to get Legends would be our badass mayor). Smile

I don't like the idea of Legends as a currency.

If you're worried that people who post in the guild won't get anything, can't you just double the amount of stratagems they get por guild posts? Would that be possible, to have a extra startagem reward for guild posts?

In any case, I would question whether earning currency actually motivates people to post good and insightful replies. I certainly don't think of it much when I post, although I'm not sure if other people do.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Perhaps the biggest complaint here is that the Legend would be worth too much? Perhaps it should be 10, not 25 fables?


No I don't think that's it.

It should be as the name suggests. It's not it's value that is the issue, it's the manner in which they can be earnt. Too easily!

Therefore I would suggest :


- Make Legends unearnable by automatic means anywhere. You gain them only by having them awarded to you by someone (that's to say, not at all for now).


- Turn fables on for the guilds : you've changed it to 10F for a reply, and a lesser amount per character. That should be fine. Guild's are designed to drive storygame activity, I see no reason they shouldn't earn the same as Storygame rewards.


- Add it to Ingro's list of programming projects to design an 'Award Legend' button that enables quick and easy awarding (and corresponding Fable debiting), rather than it being a administrative chore.


- Keep the 'cashing in' of Legends, as that's a nice touch.


~

This would mean we have not only provided an easy means for new members to recoop the fable cost of joining guilds, by earning them within the guilds, we also have something to (eventually) spend fables on, on a regular basis.

I think this also sits well within the awards and such we already have, as at 50F or so, it's a fairly cheap way of giving a nod to someone's work. Bigger, more impressive awards, costing more fables, would be good for those even more special occassions.

Does this pretty much cover everything, have I missed something out?
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Smee has a good point on the legends However i still like the idea of them being f or merits or major milestones or a notable contribution.

Things that would qualify for a legend are

IF day's ( 1 per year)
major milestone in posts
finishing a storygame
notable contribution to IF
special notation in IFQ ( conrtibuting an article that gets used etc)

or any other special situation that gems and Fables can not cover

as it is called Legends are special and should not be just handed out to anyone but i feel that they can be puchased but not at the price that is being listed

as for what they can be used for one possibility is exchanginthem for a "special Title" right now a title is 5000F something like 10 to 15 Legends would be perfect for such a reward granted this is just an idea
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watching this discussion develop, I began thinking. Certain facts are becoming clear.

  • Fables are worthless.
    There are too many of them in circulation, and not enough reasons for people to want to earn them. Plus, there is a huge disparity between those who have the most and those who have very little, which defeats any chance of any competitiveness.

  • Strata-gems are worthless....
    ....for the same reasons. Not only that, they are worth a fraction of a Fable.

  • Restricted forums that are currency earning means that the opportunity to earn is not equal.


I believe Legends are a good idea, provided we get their usage and the rate of earning right. So here's my suggestion, FWIW.


Do away with Fables.

No, you don't need to adjust your screens, that's what I wrote. Get rid of the fables and move to Legends. After a long gestation period, IF is being reborn, so why not re-set the currency so that everybody starts again? Only this time, we have a little hindsight to guide us.

Problems we have had to deal with in the past involving Fables included:
  • Too many fables earned to quickly (resolved by restricting fable earning forums to Storygames only)
  • Nothing to spend them on
  • People spamming for fables
  • Inflation - not enough Fables being taken out of circulation
  • Huge disparity between the 'rich' and the 'poor' resulting in exclusion from some activities


The solution I would propose is:

Legends

Only to be earned in Storygaming forums, and must be very hard to earn. For example, cap out at 10 (yes, 10!) for a chapter. Calculate the number of characters so that a post of about 500 words equates to 1 legend. Plus, 1 legend to the Author for every reply received.

Yes, you'll have to EARN those legends, by authoring Storygames, and making insightful replies. Now, they really need to be worth something to do that.

Legends could also be awarded from the Treasury for special achievements - but they'd have to be VERY special.

I think most of us will agree that we'd love to have our Storygame in its own forum, or buy our own private forum for its own use. Again, this must be worth a lot. Close to 1000 legends is what I'm thinking. Something you'd like to work towards?

Those of us who are vain enough might like to purchase their own rank. 500 legends sounds good?


Strata-gems

Earned in Game forums and what I call Supporting Creative Forums (i.e., Artwork, Poetry, Linear)

The exchange rate between Strata-gems and Legends would be so great that it would be almost impossible to buy a Legend for Strata-gems (something like 5000 to 1) but you can convert Legends to Strata-gems if you want.

Strata-gems would be as worthless as Fables are now, unless people start gambling with them and using them as fees for game entry, RP character building and so on. (We'd have to ask Key very nicely to do some tweaking in Land of Odd, Picture and the Casino games so that they use Strata-gems instead of Fables)

So there you are. Two currencies - virtually incompatible, earned in completely different ways, and spent in completely different ways.

One is not so different from the Fable in its usage, the other is a reward for Storygame writing and playing, and promises bigger returns.

Both have only just been created, so if we go this route, we're all at the same level.



But whatever route we take, it may be useful to start a brainstorming thread about what privileges on this site would we really want to earn currency to buy.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of sense spoken there Crunchy.

I'll let it sink in a bit, but a quick response would be - I'm all for it.

The only thing I'm not certain on is if the functionality that pays a thread author currency on someone else replying is working.

Edit : Scratch that last part; a quick test has confirmed it working perfectly. Smile
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This might be because I'm from an older Era of If, but I disagree with doing away with Fables completely. For one thing, the've been a part of If for a very long time and I'm rather loathe to see another piece of its history fade away. That's probably a rather small reason compared to what the rest of you lot are saying to be for doing away with it, but I'd rather see the conversion rates increase between Strata-gem to Fable and Fable to Legend. Also, maybe Legends shouldn't even be available to be converted into? Just awarded? (Is that even possible with the coding?)
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:56 am    Post subject: hi Reply with quote

yeah i have no idea what this is about but Just wanted to say its been awhile, and I'm back!
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a big fan of Crunchy's proposal. Perhaps we could refer to Legends as Fables instead, to keep the tradition alive? And then just wipe everyone's currency when we're ready for the new system? I agree- there are some serious money divides going on here. Look at the fable count of any new member, and compare it to someone like Crunchy or Chinaren. The difference is absurd by several orders of magnitude. I think Crunchy hit the nail on the head when she pointed out how easy they are to earn, and how rarely they can be spent. If nothing else, we might want to change the achievement rate.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well... some good thoughts went into that reply CF, and that's appreciated certainly.

But I'm highly against a reset. I can't express how against that I would be. If the divide is great, it is because of 2 reasons, the length of time and involvement on IF, and the decision to care to amass them.

It is not as if those of higher currency counts are 'taking advantage' of the poor here.

I also greatly disagree that they are useless. Instead I see that we, as a city, has not striven to make them worthwhile in a significant enough way. Its been a while since C'ren's auction DPs and Superhuman have been seen but those two were excellent examples of what could be the reward of hoarded fables.

We have had IFgear auctions as well, even though I'm not so certain we may see them any time soon until the site becomes more capable of bringing in hard currency.

And if, in the eventuality that this becomes possible, that more hard income can be derived from the site, I'd like to see fables backed by real $.

On that hopeful day, those who decided to care to HAVE fables should be rewarded for having taken part in the game of the currency system, not penalized with a reset, now or down the line. Sure, this comes across like a bit of a pipe dream perhaps but I feel something coming for IF someday - some kind of greatness it has no idea it will find.

Fables, therefore, I see as shares in the unformed corporation of IF. Sure each might be worth a fairly insignificant amount for a great many reasons. But I think we may need a solution to THAT more than a reset.

AKA, if we are to drastically reduce the amount of fables awarded, than we should create a second 'fable' for a time, a 'new fable', or somesuch. The city would have say a month to convert their current fables to the new fables (which would be something like 100 old fables to 1 new fable.) The new fables could then be established as what are earned in lieu of removing earning the old fables. And the rates could thus be adjusted while keeping fairness to those who have earned up till now.

However, consider that I just discovered that the maximum award for a post limits not only the amount of fables that may be made in a given post, but how many may be derived from reply posts as well. That had been a flaw in the establishment of the Legend. Thus, if I cap out at 2 fables for a sg post (or somesuch), I won't get any further from replies.


RE Legends: I've been talking it over and I can agree that the way they are currently established may be unnecessary but has hit on a new concept that may make a new currency worth something more. It may be functional enough to simply apply fable bonuses to Guild activities.

Currently, Lil, they CAN'T be bought with fables. Try it, in your profile page. You should find it only possible to convert Legends to fables and stratagems and not the other way around. Currently, they cannot be traded either.

But given some of the new system structure concepts for them, it appears we would have them be more like this:

  • Are not earned via posting at all.
  • May not be traded.
  • May be converted into fables at a rate of 1 : 100 but only one way, no purchasing them.
  • However, an IFian may send a PM to the mayor and a donation of 100Fables to the treasury in seeking that an award be given to another citizen in recognition of something special that has been done for that IFian.
  • Moderators and Guildmasters may simply ask the Mayor to adjust the Legends count for a particular citizen for reaching a particular award.

Another way to handle this would be to assign a set # of Legends to the Treasury(ies). Then we would need to allow them to be traded overall so they may be donated by the treasuries. This would be preferable from a site mod perspective.
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thunderbird wrote:

But I'm highly against a reset. I can't express how against that I would be. If the divide is great, it is because of 2 reasons, the length of time and involvement on IF, and the decision to care to amass them.


I can understand the POV of those who have amassed enormous amounts of Fables over the years. I'm doubtful that Fables will ever be able to translate to hard cash in the future, but I can understand the sentimental value they may hold for some. But the flurries of trading activity we do have are few and far between. People just aren't finding uses for them and are therefore not donating them to each other.

Quote:
However, consider that I just discovered that the maximum award for a post limits not only the amount of fables that may be made in a given post, but how many may be derived from reply posts as well. That had been a flaw in the establishment of the Legend. Thus, if I cap out at 2 fables for a sg post (or somesuch), I won't get any further from replies.
- Far from it being a flaw, I think it is excellent. The harder it is to earn a Legend, the more valuable it could potentially become.

However, regardless of how easy or difficult it is to earn a currency, it would still be worthless if there's nothing to use it for. Before we go any further on how to set up these currencies, I think we need to decide on a purpose.

Go Here to tell us what you'd want your currencies for. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Yes, you'll have to EARN those legends, by authoring Storygames, and making insightful replies. Now, they really need to be worth something to do that.


Now, I realize that I have a few more Fatbacks than most, but I object very strongly to this.

I've earned those Fables. I've written a whole fun load more than most everyone on this site, and if you delete them, worthless as they are, you can say goodbye to me permanently.

Delete them and I'll want every single post of mine removed from this site. Delete my account. Remove all my graphics, The City, Awards with them. (They're my copyright).

Maybe it won't matter, I'm not on here much these days, and that's fair enough, but once you introduce a currency it should be a stable thing.

Half the SGs I wrote on here, okay, maybe a third, were Fable encouraged. Greed, Wrath and so on were just part of it.

Sorry to be so bolshy, but once you have a currency you have it. Wiping everyone's savings out will have repercussions.
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sigh... not the copyright crap again Chinaren... Confused

We covered this back in 2009.

On signing up to the City you agree to this :

Quote:
Terms of Use
The content of all storygames is copyright their respective authors. All other content is copyright the City of IF. Any suggestions or ideas you contribute to a storygame become the property of the storygame author. Any other suggestions or ideas that you contribute to the site become the property of the City of IF. You do not obtain any rights of ownership either to the story ideas or to the written content by posting suggestions or otherwise participating in this site.


Your storygames are yours, the rest is the City's.

~

That said - it's only an idea. Just saying you're against it is sufficient for this stage. You could have saved the 'big guns' for later, if the idea even gets that far which is most unlikely with the Mayor against it.

Not cool Erm
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chill, orange one. I will not be resetting fables to a flatline no matter what anybody here argues. A condensing effort may apply soon but they won't be erased. I can't say I feel much differently about it (perhaps not quite as strong) but I get how you feel there and that's exactly why I'm against it.

Funny the solid stance comes from those who have done all they can to make fables valuable.

I will probably end up resetting Legends though.
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taking into account the fact that Chinaren and Thunderbird both have engineered a new sort of SGing, maybe there could be a place SG's run with players using Fables. Now, I know that setting something like that up is hard work and even harder to keep it running, but perhaps it'd be seen as worth it? Another thought (no idea if this is possible) but maybe it should cost to make a vote in SGs (or just ones that have gotten SGotM). This might inspire people to make more comments in SG Topics and the more ideas thrown out there, the better for us all.

No matter what is decided, the best thing we can do is to focus on relating the Fables into being spent on the main foundation of IF, SGs. (Also, checked what you suggested TB. You are correct. Smile thanks.)
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When did we agree that we even needed to remove so many fables from the system? Can we not go one step at a time? I think we should trial the idea of having legends buyable and then exchangable (for, say, half the amount they're bought for). This will encourage the flow of fables and remove some from the system. If that doesn't pick up, then we should look at other solutions. If we change a lot of stuff all at once, there will be much more resistance and confusion.

A condensing effort, by the way, wouldn't do anything to reduce the ratios of rich to poor, just mean fewer fables counts as richer.

Does anyone here have an Economics degree?
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My reply last night may have been rather direct, and I didn't mean any offense to the suggester of the idea. I just strongly disagree with it! (Obviously).

Still, Smee's repetition of the terms of use have raised another issue. I'll post that in a new thread to stop this one going off topic.
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am also against resetting Fables. It's a noble gesture to offer to level the playing field for new people, but these Fables were earned over the course of years of dedication. They are not just sentimental, they recognize our contributions and loyalty to the site. Throwing them away would be throwing away our recognition, which would be very ungrateful. Even just for the acknowledgment, Fables have value.

I understand what we're trying to do here with "currency". We're trying to bribe people to participate in the site. We want it to grow so that eventually each chapter is read by hundreds, maybe thousands, of people. We want recognition as an art form and what's more we want actual money for our writing. Surely, with enough people on the site we could turn a profit. With ad revenue and/or subscriptions, authors could make an actual living off of writing and maybe even become famous. It's a fantastic vision, but gimmicks won't make it happen.

Fables are a system of scoring, not currency. It's a neat system that allows you to offer scores to other people playing the same Meta-Game, but it's not compensation. I can not turn my Fables into money nor anything else I want outside of this game. Even if someone wanted to buy my Fables for real money, I'd be loathe to because it would deprive me of the score I have in this game (in case there are any takers, my current rate is 1¢ per Fable. You think that's outrageous? Then keep your money). I am also not interested in buying Fables, because they don't mean anything to me if I didn't earn or win them somehow (by writing or some auction or such).

How about we keep it simple and accept that some people have more score than others? "Wealthy" members are not preventing "poor" members from doing anything, though they may lose the occasional auction, so what's the problem?

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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good Post

I agree wholeheartedly. And the idea of Legends was to 'score' Ifians on their activities behind the scenes, Guilds being the most accessable of these. The concept here, with Legends, as I believe I have been told had not come across all that effectively, is largely to give IFians a feeling of attaining some kind of special role in our community when partaking in (primarily) Guild activities.

I know for many long timers, the guilds may not seem like they are all that special to be a part of, especially since all gathered here now are watching and waiting for them to manifest.

But when I once joined IF, long ago, and was invited to join the Fantasy Guild, I was given a sense of being welcomed into the IFian community that even posting a chapter or two and getting decent responses to them had not yet given in comparison. With admittance into the Guild Hall, I felt like I was now a part of the under-city, among the 'true' IFians, welcomed into the fold. My concept with Legends was conceived of to grant that feeling all the more to new IFians.

I did not even realize at the time how 'struggling' the guild system actually was then. I simply felt really welcomed into something very cool that not everyone gets to see.

It was my hope, that Legends would make an IFian feel all the more like, well, a Legend of IF. Like this score represented the amount of cultural contribution a given player had brought to the site. It has little to do with how it plays into the rest of the 'currency' system.


Now, that said, there have been some outstanding suggestions that may require the origin of a whole new kind of currency. I'm a bit loathe to simply inject yet another currency into the system though since I don't want things to become overly complex.

But I now believe a 'Glory', or something of the like, would be appropriate. The currency would be a reward earned currency only and would be worth a great many fables. One primary benefit that has been thrown around would be utilization as a crit trade currency.

I was going to reset Legends and convert them to the 'Glory' concept that was detailed in an earlier post, but I'm still not entirely convinced their original purpose has been shown to be detracting.


Keep in mind that we could make them a bit more distinguished by finding some iconic representation for each sort of currency to help us keep them separate in our perception of them.
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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But I now believe a 'Glory', or something of the like, would be appropriate.


*Groan*

Please, not ANOTHER confusing, useless currency. We have enough of those.

How about we turn the Legend into Crunchy's crit credit/award system? We don't have to get rid of the Fable or the stratagem; we just have to turn the Legend into something more useful.

First let's see if the crit credit and award system works, then we can think about scrapping the other currencies if they seem counterproductive. But for now, I don't think it's necessary.
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that was sorta what I figured the consensus would be on that. Still, I strongly disagree that our currencies are useless.

Just ask for citizens to sacrifice some and all tend to grow tight in the pocket.

It may take some time to establish the full rules of the new 'Legend" then. In the meantime, it is as is and may be exchanged later for fables before a reset.
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll gladly give all of my current and future fables, strata gems, and hwhat nots away Wink But seriously, I still don't even get why there are strata gems. Why don't you just set the amount of fables in that forum to less. The legend thing makes more sense as other people suggested it be.
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because the currency mod doesn't allow that.

You set the rate, and then a forum either has that rate or it doesn't.
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see. Very well then.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally don't care how the currency debate plays out- all I know is, it is a fun element and whatever its form I hope a currency system stays!


I also hope you won't change the site TOO much. The richness and diversity in the forums is what attracted me- Even though I haven't posted yet I am enjoying it already. I hope you don't get rid of the Inn! (or even the Tower or even the Space out Back, because those rooms are so cool and are a neat piece of code that should be kept in the site)...

and, also, well, I hope you keep the ad-lessness Wink. Or at least no conspicuous ads! If you must have ads, please please have text ads, make it obviously ads, and then put it at the bottom of all pages instead of the side or top of pages. It's so distracting if its graphical and next to stories or posts by members.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've ignored this thread too long, but I think its time for me to post here, though its going to be insignificant and unproductive and give you points which have already been posted. For once, I have nothing new to add Wink

I agree with Crunchy's system, though throwing away fables is not a good idea. Keep the fables.

I agree with Lebrenth.

That's all. Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll be talking out some changes with CF to the Legend structure soon. In the meantime, take full advantage of Legends if you can. The guilds should be opening soon Wink And we're beginning to get some modding done that should bring some very interesting new uses for fables... just to let everyone know.
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