City of IF

[PopeAlessandrosXVIII]

I'm putting this up here mostly for an intelligent dicussion between IFians about their support or dislike of Meta Decission Points. Do you like them? Why, or why not?

For those of you who don't know what a Meta DP is, I'll try to explain best I can.

A DP, as we all know it, it where an author peresents a problem, and we all give suggestions of how we think they should deal with it.

A Meta DP is less HOW things happen next, and more WHAT happens next. It gives ultimate control to the reader.

I'd like to hear arguments from both sides. Please note, I will be taking excerpts from this thred and putting them in the next edition of the IF Quirer.

So, let's hear it!

[Thunderbird]

I'm going to wait a moment to see what others have to say before chiming in.

[Crunchyfrog]

Me too. I'm interested to see what people think of the DP process as authors and as players.

[LordoftheNight]

Well, as one of the most active members of the site (honest), I've never really been a fan of Meta DPs. I prefer to think of DPs as...putting you in the character's shoes, that the readers are more of roleplayers all playing the same character, rather than actually writing the story. As the reader I feel you offer suggestions for how the character(s) should act as respond to what the author is doing, rather than describing what actually happens to them.

If nothing else, this means the author can actually plan out a storyline that the main characters interacts with - if the readers are making real tangible plot related decisions, it makes it hard for for the author to plan ahead at all. So instead, some Authors I've seen will give a completely inconsequential Meta RP - that they'll give the reader the illusion of choice as to what happens next, but then whatever they choose will make no difference to the actual story apart from in the opening few paragraphs of that next chapter. Almost like they're stringing along the reader with the pretense of choice, when actually the story will just follow what they want it to.

Of course, I've never actually finished a storygame despite my best efforts (Fronte will be finished...eventually. Maybe), so maybe this way just makes it much easier and actually does still work well.

[Thunderbird]

Wow! Very nice to see you around Lordy... even better to hear hint of a suggestion that you'll return to writing Fronte (hopefully sometime soon? :D )

I tend to agree, with some exceptions and additional thoughts.

Personally, I feel Meta DPs are GENERALLY a lazy decision by the author. It tends to indicate, to me, that the author doesn't know, or care, where the story is heading and doesn't have a clear perspective on their plot.

Non-Meta's are immersive. As Lordy said, they allow the audience the feel of participation, not in WRITING the story, but in being a PART of the story.

Now, that said, I actually feel that sometimes trying to keep with non-meta dp's can often make me feel as if I've laid out a dp that does exactly what my esteemed colleague claims meta dps tend to deliver, a decision point where the plot is not so greatly affected beyond the first few paragraphs. But that may be my own weakness as a storygame author - I may tend to have too clear a concept of the plot and may not be opening up the plot to dp alteration enough... I suppose there, it depends on the story I'm telling.

When I encounter meta-dps as a player, I often feel like the author is cheating, trying to just get through a spot where their imagination has somehow failed them.

But it isn't always this way. I do feel there are some points where meta-dps are appropriate. On occasion, if your story has a nice degree of variance, you may not always have a good spot to end a chapter with the character (or any character in the tale for that matter) to make a decision. At a point like this, a meta-dp may become necessary. For these moments, the DP should still be one that does not involve 'what happens next' but rather should allow the audience to craft their preferences on story direction in a more unique manner.

I'm not sure how to encapsulate what I'm indicating there, except to say you may soon see something like this in the near future of Heavy Metal. Perhaps the difference is not in seeking from the audience the next course of events, so much as asking for some assistance in defining some aspect of the story in very specific terms.

And all that said, I don't begrudge authors who use Meta-DPs. I just don't find them as skillful or elegant as a well crafted non-meta.

I have a return question to ask IFians however, that has been sparked by this discussion... How do you feel about not limiting DPs to just one character in the story? In HM, I have often had DPs for other characters aside from Walt and I've been wondering if this somehow throws the audience's perception of immersion into the tale AS a participant. I do try to limit the list of characters I'm willing to give DPs to, but many SGs maintain the DPs under one character all the way throughout. Is this preferable to the audience?

[Crunchyfrog]

Congratulations Lordy on your new suit. Very becoming indeed! :tu:

Thunderbird wrote: When I encounter meta-dps as a player, I often feel like the author is cheating, trying to just get through a spot where their imagination has somehow failed them.

But it isn't always this way. I do feel there are some points where meta-dps are appropriate. On occasion, if your story has a nice degree of variance, you may not always have a good spot to end a chapter with the character (or any character in the tale for that matter) to make a decision. At a point like this, a meta-dp may become necessary. For these moments, the DP should still be one that does not involve 'what happens next' but rather should allow the audience to craft their preferences on story direction in a more unique manner.

I agree that, if crafted in the right way, a Meta DP can be effective. It can also give you an idea of what your readers are expecting, or want to happen. These can help you develop some effective plot twists.

In Chapter 31 of Magician's Touch, I ran two polls. One was character driven, the other unintentionally turned into a Meta.

The MC was in a cave, and had uncovered a valuable artefact. But he could hear sounds of something approaching. The DP was simple - what action should he take? Hide it? Stay and fight? - The winning option was to stay where he was and keep digging.

The second DP was who the MC thought the approaching persons(s) might be. Given that they'd voted for him to stay put, you'd think the suggestions would be something fairly tame. But instead of staying in character, the players offered suggestions based on what they expected to see. The outcome of the voting was interesting for me, because it helped me understand what was important to them.

As it was, the result was a tie, between 'something not human' and a wild card option that could have been any character, old or new, friendly or unfriendly.

Even within the confines of the plot, I was able to deliver something unexpected on both counts. Those who were hoping for something not human may have been disappointed to find that it was only a dog - although who's dog it turned out to be, made for a significant plot twist. Those who had voted for the wild card were treated to seeing the missing character that our MC had been searching for throughout the story. Hopefully this development elicited a feeling of satisfaction that we had reached an important turning point in the tale.

Neither the appearance of that character (at that point in the story at least) or the dog had been planned. Yet through this meta DP they twisted the plot and moved it onto a slightly different course.

[Lebrenth]

I am definitely a non-meta DP kind of guy, as I see a storygame as much about game as it is about story, and I see meta decisions as entirely about story. If the challenge is defeating a dragon, the winning Meta DP option could be "George sneezes the dragon out of existence"... no challenge hence no game. However, both forms have their benefits and neither really matter if they aren't implemented well.

I have certainly seen SG's where the players have a blast by helping to create the story, especially when it includes a lot of humor. These SG's can attract enthusiastic participants that far outweigh the numbers usually seen in others. I suspect it is because of the level of involvement. Conventional DP's usually force participants to choose from a handful of paths, sometimes as simple as whether to go left or right at a fork in the road. Meta DP's have limitless options that can be a creation of pure whimsy or artful stratagem. It's also more playful in that there is no wrong answer just "happy mistakes" that can be wished away if necessary, and played around with if desired. It's kind of like playing with Legos. If you create your own objectives, you can build whatever you like without worrying about failure.

Meta DP's can also really help to develop a story as well, assuming the participants are helpful. It can be a way of moderating a collaborative story which has the added benefit of getting reader feedback for potential ideas. Wacky out-of-character options usually don't get voted in, as most people want to see the story do well, but they aren't completely ignored either so you get the benefit of diverse input.

I'm a jealous writer who doesn't want anyone handling any part of the story elements except the motivations of the main character. I want to weave a web full of dangers and challenge my participants to find an escape. I think it's more immersive because the limitations are the same as they are for real people. BUT, this attitude is almost like saying that I want all of the best parts of the story for myself, and I'll only share the smallest shread of power that I can. Participants have to read the entire chapter, make the best decision they can on limited information, and then MAYBE they'll get their way in the next chapter. The investment compared to the return is awful. The only real payoff is that if they do find a way to succeed they have the satisfaction of knowing they did it with real limitations.

With either form of DP, there is a fundamental challenge of convincing the participants that their votes actually mean something. As mentioned above, a Meta DP can be dismissed after a couple of sentences, but so can a conventional DP. How much credit can a participant take for success when it doesn't seem to matter what they pick, the author always finds a way to help him win? How many storygames have any of us encountered that ended suddenly and badly because the wrong option was chosen? If the DP is not implemented with conviction, it doesn't matter what kind of DP it is, so I suggest worrying less about what kind of DP it is or more about how to make it matter.

[Emperor]

So I had just a few words to add, much of what has been said already is in my opinion valid and in line with my own thinking.

Firstly, I'm the kind of guy who thinks that an author should honor the characters he has created by remaining true to their intentions and personalties. Even if that means that character would do something that you as the author would not want them to do. The example I have is from Thorns and Steel, where Dirk (who is vile, evil and nasty in all ways) allies himself with the main characters (a.k.a. good guys) because the wants to strengthen the relationship he has with them. By doing this as an author it forced me to have those dynamics interact in an way that no one dies and at the same time it shed a more human light on the most evil character in the story - which isn't always a good thing. I'm rambling, in regards to DP's I feel that the best thing that can be done is to choose the ones that honor the characters you are making them for. Nothing bothers me more as a reader when I get to some point of a story and the character does something that is in direct conflict with how they were portrayed the whole time. Of course this does not include times when the author has paved the way to a scene in which the character would make an alternate decision.

As for meta, there are times in which they are necessary that may or may not have anything to do with crafted plots and character personalites. With the SG format it is the best way at time to give a nod to your readers and give them the opportunity to change the story. As SG's are interactive it is my opinion that meta's could be used to challenge yourself as the author to make sure that you are in line with what your readers want who have been following you the whole time.

And lastly multiple DP's - I think they are a good thing. As it stands with Symphony there are currently 3 past DP's waiting to resolve themselves in the next chapter - whenever that will be :oops:. Though the only con, or word of warning I may have in using multiples I think it can confuse the reader and forces them to work harder at having to keep up with what has happened in former chapters. This is extremely problematic when you post as sparsely as I do.

Anyways that the Imperial two cents.

[Chinaren]

I was invited back over here by Popey for this thread, but forgot until now! Sorry for arriving late. o-)

I've had this discussion before on IF, but goodness knows where that thread is, so I'll give my opinion.

I think Lebby has hit the nail on the head here. It doesn't, to me, matter what the DP is, as long as it's implemented properly, and furthers the story.

That said, I personally think the 'traditional' DP is all well and good, and can work well. However, those of you who've seen some of my stories know I'm always pushing the barriers, trying new things. I don't like the idea of a 'set idea' of a DP. It's restrictive to me. That's why on Tome it's called a Suggestion Phase. It's more open, and so far it's worked fine IMO.

Emps comments about the characters going the 'wrong way' is totally valid though, and personally, if I couldn't fit the suggestion in with the story, I'd have to say no to that idea. I usually manage though. Can't remember this happening actually.

At the end of the day I think it should be left up to the author.

:2c:

[Vishal Muralidharan]

Well, I believe that some amount of planning MUST be behind each story, which would make writing with meta-dp's very hard for me to write with, because I wouldn't want to switch things around too much once I've planned something.

That said, I'm sure that many people would just get stuck up at a point of their story, not knowing what to do. When there's apparently "nothing to happen" in the story, a Meta DP maybe put up to fill the void, or lead into a conflict without seeming abrupt (Im not sure if this is coming out as clearly as Im hoping).

But, depending on the type of story your writing, a normal DP couldn't help you as well, which is why some people prefer linear stories. This is what happened to Vikas. He finds it very hard to write his SG, though he just told me he'd write chapters now.(YAY!)

Quote: I have a return question to ask IFians however, that has been sparked by this discussion... How do you feel about not limiting DPs to just one character in the story? In HM, I have often had DPs for other characters aside from Walt and I've been wondering if this somehow throws the audience's perception of immersion into the tale AS a participant. I do try to limit the list of characters I'm willing to give DPs to, but many SGs maintain the DPs under one character all the way throughout. Is this preferable to the audience?

I don't know how it would feel to play multi-character based DPs. Its something I've been doing with Nightmares in its last few chapters. So I would also like to see how the others respond. :)

[Cyberworm]

In my opinion, every DP needs to have it's time and place, and both Meta DP's and "regular" DPs have their place in a story. It's just a question of which one the author prefers, and how does he or she implement it.

:2c:

Pure and simple. :) Diplomatic? Not really. :P

[PopeAlessandrosXVIII]

Wow. Really interesting discussion here...A few of these things hit me fairly hard....

I'd like to put out there, just why I started this thred...It wasn't just for the IF Quirer, but for a personal reason as well...

When my friend told me about SGing, I felt very strongly against the whole idea. Like most writers, I'm veeery over protective of my work. Even when I started my first SG, I KNEW where I wanted it to go, EXACTLY how I wanted my characters to be, and crafted all my DP around areas that wouldn't effect the storyline too much.

But then I started To Be A Kight. When I did so, I did so with a firm resolve. "This is the players story, not mine. If I can not live up to the callange they set up for me, then I have a long way to go as a writer." For this particular story, I'm determined to NOT plan ahead untill all the suggestions and votes are in. I wanted to make a story that could go as far and long as the players imaginations. I wanted to challange myself.

I have always prided myself on haveing the best imagination in my family, but sometimes I am rudly reminded that even I have my limits. What SGing has presented to me, is a way to expand, exersize, and challange my mind and creative abilites.

Reading here words about Metas being "Lazy", or disregarding them in a few sentances, or "Giving the player the illusion of power", and "like the author is cheating, trying to just get through a spot where their imagination has somehow failed them." All those things really hurt.

In my mind, a Meta is the exact opposite, if taken seriously. For me, a Meta DP, if taken seriously, gives the player real power, and noy an act of lazyless or failed imagination. For me, it is a real challange for the writer. The ultimate test of how well an author can use, expand, and manipulate their own imaginations.

Given the example "Sneezeing a dragon to death." Could you imagine taking that seriously and making work for a story? Sounds like the kind of challenge I'd love to take on. Sounds like somthing not many people could take on without it turning out as a flop, or a scape goat.

To me, both Meta and regular DPs are equaly precious. The normal ones alow my to tell my tale, while getting some fun out of little quirks and twists my players throw me. While Metas provide the challenge I so desperatly crave as a writer. I feel that if I only did regular DPs, I'd never grow as a witer, and my writing would become repetetive and stagnate. I am fulling willing to take on the dragon with only one set of lungs and a bad cold. Sounds fun!

I do understand that many times, writers do use Metas for all those reasons stated by previous posters, but I'd appriciate if you all could consider my words. To me, Metas are like meatloaf. Just because you've had bad meatloaf, doesn't mean all meatloaf is the same.

Well, in the words of Forrest Gump, "and that's all I got to say about that."

*Ducks for cover*

[Thunderbird]

I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings here, Pope, least of all you, who I don't feel has overused Meta-DPs at all. Anything said is purely for debate's sake. Sometimes, with Metas I do feel that they've been a clever self-challenge for the author, and that's the postive side of them, certainly. There is a noticeable difference between a meta that is there to patch an imagination gap and one that's put in place to really give open control to the audience. Sometimes it can blur a bit but the latter example, when it clearly comes through as such, doesn't disturb me in the least.

I think what bugs me more is when non-meta DPs that have been given by the SG author are then taken as meta DPs by the players. This seems overreaching and a bit intruding into unwelcome territory sometimes.

[BStheGreat]

Thunderbird wrote: It tends to indicate, to me, that the author doesn't know, or care, where the story is heading and doesn't have a clear perspective on their plot.

I personally never plan out anything I write, I prefer to just write and let the story unfold by itself. What fun is writing something if you already know the ending? I suppose I prefer the meta-dp thingy. When I come to a stopping point it's not because I decided it would be a good spot for a decision, I stop writing because that's where it should stop, that's where it has to stop. It is simply the right place, for no other reason than that.

So when I do stop, and have to come up with a decision point, I usually have none to give. The only choice I have is what comes next. Of course I tend to use very vague points, such as in my latest SG The Narrator (I'm still working on it, I swear), the choice I gave was should he stay or should he go (I guess this is a meta-dp).

The biggest problem I have with SGing is the time it takes for voting, for a simple reason: I hate everything I write. Not immediately, it takes some time and a rereading. This is why I never proofread, as I would probably tear everything I wrote up before it even made it onto the computer. The only things I've ever liked that I've written were short stories. When I decided I was going to continue writing The Narrator, I was forced to reread it, and I literally almost puked. It was the worst thing I ever read. I immediately rewrote it, and will probably have to rewrite it again before I can write the next chapter.

This is why a speedy decision point is needed for me. If I dwell on things for too long, I'm doomed to fail. So meta-dp or not, I'll choose what ever is necessary

[Vishal Muralidharan]

While I do agree with pope for some part of his views, here's what I have to say.

For me, it is quite hard to write without planning ahead, which is my problem actually. I am willing to go through a challenge in writing, but the reason I write is because I love writing. I love writing because it is fun.

I can write with sneezing a dragon out of existence, but I hold back meta-dps because of a reason. If people suggest something totally 'shocking' (I don't know if its the right word...shocking in a matter of perspective), and the suggestion wins. I would be writing something I don't want to write. It would make the whole process extremely drab and painful. And I wouldn't want that to change the way I feel about writing, and ultimately affect everything I write about.

Meta-dps can provide a grat challenge, but I wouldn't take the risk of beginning to hate writing. Thats all.
:)

[Shillelagh]

An interesting discussion indeed. I think, for my part, it really depends on the story. A laid back or wacky tale really won't suffer at all from a meta-DP; especially if the story has little to no characterization. On the other hand, a more serious work with rich characters and an in-depth plotline really needs a more traditional DP to maintain that tone. The author of something serious must always pretend that he is in control of the story, and that really can't be done with a meta-DP. Now, when I say 'serious' I of course don't mean grim and proper so much as I do the opposite of random. Planned or meticulous might work better, though sometimes the author of such a work is neither.

I digress. I think what I'm getting at is that the DP itself doesn't matter, as long as the author is willing to let the reader control that DP, and the story fragment that comes after it. That's really the important part. If your story is hiking along a clear-cut trail that you've picked out for it, and the readers decide to take a sharp left- well, you've got to follow them. You can't give them a few pity paragraphs of left and then put them back on the trail. You've got to go left. Maybe you'll get back to the trail later, or maybe you won't. But whether that sharp left contains a pretty scenic view or a huge thicket of nettles and thorns, you've got to take it.

The best DP in the world is wasted if the author won't give it the proper weight that it deserves.

As for your follow up, Thunder- I really think that it depends on the story. Something written in first or second person should only have one character's viewpoint for every DP. Same with third person limited. If we've been following around character x all day, switching to character y for a DP feels wrong- it's practically a meta DP. But, if the story has a diverse cast of characters, then I wouldn't blink for a moment if the characters with the most screen time rotated between having DPs. So long as it was balanced, I think it would be fine. Great, even.

[Thunderbird]

This is really provoking some very thoughtful replies here!

[Lebrenth]

PopeAlessandrosXVIII wrote: Given the example "Sneezeing a dragon to death." Could you imagine taking that seriously and making work for a story? Sounds like the kind of challenge I'd love to take on. Sounds like somthing not many people could take on without it turning out as a flop, or a scape goat.

It can get a lot worse than the Sneezing Dragon. Let's take your story "To Be A Knight" and pretend we are determined to sabotage it at any cost. Some quick ideas for this last DP:

Murder and cannabalize Shait, then wear his intestines for a necklace.
The whole building turns into a friendly purple dinosaur.
The main character turns into a chicken and starts eating worms.
The belts recreates the universe into one where every desire is instantly fulfilled.
... That's just round 1. By round 2, you'll be looking for other ways to waste your time. Anyway, besides taking this opportunity to go a little crazy, I wanted to make it clear that a SG can be thoroughly thrashed by uncooperative participants. A well crafted story requires development that often spans across many chapters. If the participants aren't trying to help you with the vision of the story, you have no choice but to take away their ability to participate or watch it mutate into something incomprehensibly grotesque.

But I suppose the same effect can happen to a normal DP, even if the level of power is lessened.

[Emperor]

PopeAlessandrosXVIII wrote:

Reading here words about Metas being "Lazy", or disregarding them in a few sentances, or "Giving the player the illusion of power", and "like the author is cheating, trying to just get through a spot where their imagination has somehow failed them." All those things really hurt.



Firstly as Thunder said I don't think anyone was intentionally or purposefully trying to hurt your feelings. The way I interpreted the responses was that people were simply stating their opinions on the topic at hand. In the end, no matter how a person states their opinion it remains one. If having meta dp's in your story helps your writing process then there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.


Vishal Muralidharan wrote: It would make the whole process extremely drab and painful. And I wouldn't want that to change the way I feel about writing, and ultimately affect everything I write about.

Meta-dps can provide a grat challenge, but I wouldn't take the risk of beginning to hate writing. Thats all.
:)

I can understand this position in a very real way, like I said earlier sometimes any decision point - whether it be meta or not - can change and guide a story in a way that just feels wrong as the author. It was a situation like this that forced Resio and I to pull Thorns & Steel off as a sg and just finish it as a novel in itself. With that said as we all know an sg is an entirely different beast. In my opinion if you decide to write an sg you already have to come to realize that you will be losing an aspect of control. True it can be said that you can limit how much you relinquish but in the end you will have to give some away. As it has been said before meta's just multiply that loss of control, sometimes in a positive way and sometimes in a negative way. And not that I use meta's in any amount that could be even considered occasional, if your going to lose some control in your sg - why not every now and then challenge yourself and lose it all. (Disclaimer -- in no way does stating this opinion mean that I will now begin to use meta's more often in my own sg's. :whist:

[Vishal Muralidharan]

Quote: Murder and cannabalize Shait, then wear his intestines for a necklace.
The whole building turns into a friendly purple dinosaur.
The main character turns into a chicken and starts eating worms.
The belts recreates the universe into one where every desire is instantly fulfilled.

LOL!

Quote: I can understand this position in a very real way, like I said earlier sometimes any decision point - whether it be meta or not - can change and guide a story in a way that just feels wrong as the author. It was a situation like this that forced Resio and I to pull Thorns & Steel off as a sg and just finish it as a novel in itself. With that said as we all know an sg is an entirely different beast. In my opinion if you decide to write an sg you already have to come to realize that you will be losing an aspect of control. True it can be said that you can limit how much you relinquish but in the end you will have to give some away. As it has been said before meta's just multiply that loss of control, sometimes in a positive way and sometimes in a negative way. And not that I use meta's in any amount that could be even considered occasional, if your going to lose some control in your sg - why not every now and then challenge yourself and lose it all. (Disclaimer -- in no way does stating this opinion mean that I will now begin to use meta's more often in my own sg's.

I can see you understand the situation very well. I would also like to point out that I don't feel I'm losing control of my story in any way. In fact, I love what Tbird, Lebrenth and CFrog brought into my story, and they've really helped me grow as a writer.

Im just worried that I might end up doing something I don't want to(and something I might hate).

Cheers!

[Amichan]

A good measure that can be used to cover both a regular and Meta DP is to actually throw the Meta DP into the mix of the choices .. that way if those voting like what the writer has then its all systems go but that specific writer should not be offended if it doesnt work out that way there is still that chance of working the chose DP and Meta DP into the same chapter as long as it keeps the flow of the story going smooth

[D-Lotus]

This is my biased opinion from over a year ago.

Not sure what I would say now. The only way to find out what works is to experiment.

[Thunderbird]

Wow... I hadn't realized that thread was around here -musta taken place when I wasn't here. Old school debates on this topic were even more ruthless than these commentaries ;)