City of IF

[PopeAlessandrosXVIII]

For the next IF Quirer, I'd like to have another Discussion. I found if most enjoyable to read through everyone oppinion on the matter of Meta, so this time let's try...


After picking up over 100 story books off my shelves, I've come to realize that using the present tense in a story is very rare, if not non-existant in published works. I've seen a few others besides myself, who use present tense in their stories. I'd like to hear about you IFians thoughts and preferances on the matter.

Also, just for fun, your thoughts and preferences on the Perspective in stories. You know, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd perspectives? Which do you prefer reading, writing in, and which you not like at all. Which do you believe presents as the most challenging? (A note on perspectives. 1st person is where the writer uses the "I" point of view. -I look across an open field-. 2nd person is the "You" point of view. -You look across an open field-. 3rd person is the "He/She/They" point of view. -He/She/They look across an open field-.)

Well, there you are, let's bring on the noise!

[Thunderbird]

I think present tense is rare, in part, because it is difficult. Not only is it difficult to write, but a little tougher to read as well. Its kinda like writing your signature with your off hand... just tough. It has some merit and value and it can keep you engaged in an immediate sense, but the foreign feel of it is unnerving in the long run. This would make it better suited for an extremely short story, perhaps.

3rd person is the most common because it opens up the door for multiple perspectives. At least, that's how I feel about it. I've only told one story from the first person perspective - and this was done, not only to 'try it out' but because I wanted to differentiate that character as being perhaps the most core, central character in my author's realm. This is one reason I have not often used first person - it really tells the audience who the 'protagonist' is.

The second person was well utilized in Key's Wheel tales. Its fairly well used for the storygame experience. Makes the audience feel a bit more like they are role-playing. But I don't use it at all myself because all of my stories are so intertwined that I feel it would break some consistency between them. I've been thinking about doing a shorter sg on a completely different topic though and was considering using the 2nd person for it to enhance the proper feel of that genre (horror).

So I don't outright have any problems with any tense or perspective choices the author makes - just like to see them carried through and executed well, which for present tense and 2nd and 3rd person perspectives, can be a bit more difficult.

[Lebrenth]

This is another great subject! In storygames, I think there is more use for present tense and second person perspectives than in traditional stories, as part of the point of a storygame is to make the reader feel like they have a role in a story that is actively unfolding. I still favor present tense (to the disappointment of certain readers), but I have abandoned second person because the emotions and motivations don't always match between reader and character.

For instance, here's a possible excerpt for a story in second person:

"As the giant continues eating screaming children one at a time, you can't help but laugh. The sheer terror and the pain in the children's eyes while they are chewed alive is wildly hilarious."

... If you don't think that children being eaten is 'hilarious', than you're probably not going to like being told what to feel. Then again, perhaps you can get into the right mindframe, like an actor, but mostly I think the reader naturally ignores these instructions and considers them something happening to a guy named "You" (sounds like an Abbott and Costello routine). Even if it isn't something extreme, telling the reader "You are scared," won't make it so.... Or does it? Maybe it's hypnotic?

Anyway, no need for gimmicks. You'll lose a lot of readers who simply find it off-putting, and there's no reason why other perspectives can't work.

[crazybookgal]

Second person to me is kind of awkward to read and write. As for the other two perspectives...I don't favor one or the other. I kind of match the perspective to the feel of the story-like his one feels like it should be first but this one has a third feel. If that makes sense, which it probably doesn't :lol:

As for the present/past thing- well since all books are pretty much past tense, until now I...uh *looks around hoping this won't sound stupid* I thought it was a kind of rule that it had to be past tense unless it was second person. *winces* yep that sounded dumb :oops:

[Vishal Muralidharan]

Wonderful topic, Pope!

I realized this since I started reading books, the fact that present tense is hardly used in books. Like Thunderbird said, Its just hard to write. But, it is a challenge I am willing to take up, and I am currently writing a story in present tense outside of If. I'll probably post it here later as a linear story. My current SG is in past tense, and it is something I love to do. It comes to me naturally, and I have a lot of fun with it.

Although now the mention of 'tense' makes me wonder if I can write one in future tense. :cool: I will need some help though. Anyone?! ;)

As for perspective, I have never favoured second person. Lebby explained the problem really well. When someone reads it as "You feel way about this...." and when they don't, it is a real put-off. This is mostly because you immediately make them consicous about themselves, and they forget to understand the characters. I had a first hand experience while reading my friend's chapters, which everyone seemed to enjoy except myself and a handful of others.

Whenever I use second person, I try to incorporate as little "feelings" as possible, trying to state stuff. The feelings I use are the one's that most people would feel. Something like feeling shocked after realizing you were cheated.

I don't choose between third person and first person though. I use them according to the needs of the plot, and the way the story develops. It would, however, be very annoying if you find inconsistency in perspectives in a story. Shifting between first person and third person should never be done, except in mystery stories.

In mystery stories, you can write chapters in third person, and then throw in a first-person based diary entry, reavealing minimal clues. Just be careful not to reveal too much. Add stuff like.. "*some pages missing*" or "*Illegible text*" or whatever. It is bound to keep your audience hooked. :D

[Thunderbird]

Vishal Muralidharan wrote: Although now the mention of 'tense' makes me wonder if I can write one in future tense. :cool: I will need some help though. Anyone?! ;)
Good Lord! And I thought present tense would be difficult ;)

Some good thoughts there, V! I'm impressed with the overall level of analysis going on here in general, that there continues to be unique and valuable insights to offer from each. Just when I thought everything had been said, another IFian chimes in with something new to consider. Kudos to the city on this conversation so far!

[Lebrenth]

Attempt at future tense:

"You will find a bloody knife in the gutter. You will ask yourself if you should use it to defend yourself against the stalker who is chasing you or if you should try to preserve the newly found evidence. As you hear him approach, you will decide your life is more important than the trace evidence that used to be on the knife. You will turn to strike, but you'll drop your knife in shock when you realize your stalker isn't human."

Future tense sounds like warnings from a fortune teller. It could be done, but once again, it seems like a gimmick. Why not use the tense that is acceptable to everyone instead? That way you won't have to constantly use the word "will".

By the way, if the above passage actually was a warning from a fortune teller I wouldn't consider it a change of tense for the story. The primary narration could still be past or present tense, and the above would simply be a quote, like many quotes, which includes the original words in verbatim and thus can flip forward and backward between tenses at will. In this specific case, it would be perfectly acceptable and appropriately ominous.

[Shillelagh]

I'd have to chime in on the "ugh, second person" bandwagon. There is no escaping the fact that your reader and your protagonist are two entirely different people. Even on something as simple as gender, you've got a 50/50 chance of getting it completely wrong. When you use the second person, you've just got to accept that the reader is going to have to filter through the story as if he were an actor.

When I write in the second person (which I usually reserve for CYOA/Multiverse stories), I set up a character profile just like I would for any other story, first or third person. After all, the "you" of second person still has a name- trying to write a second person story without any of the characters referring to the protagonist by name is just disasterous in my opinion. Honestly, I find that the second person is a happy medium between the two perspectives. You still get the same insight into personal thoughts and feelings as you would with the first person, but without the same level of reader attachment. Second person feels just as removed and distant as the third person- it's not you, it's just some guy whose story you're reading about. "I do this, I do that" feels personal. "You do this, you do that" feels cold and distant. It's a great tense when your story is more action than thoughts and emotions. That's why it's so great for CYOA / Multiverse stories. Choices there are usually about what action to take, not about how to feel about a certain event.

[Vishal Muralidharan]

Yeah, lebby. I realized it was a epic fail as soon as I posted it.. ;)

And thanks TBird! You are right, this has been a wonderful conversation. I wouldn't be surprised if another IFian comes out with another perspective.

I still am waiting to see what Crunchy says bout this. Crunchy always says something to think about, and I just want to here from there. :D

[crazybookgal]

hmmm what about no tense??? Tom nothing to town, nothinging all the way. :lol: i sound like a smurf haha.

or something a bit more plausible like multiperson. like many beings in one brain or something. Like: We went to our lair. We love chocolate. He spoke to us. haha this is fun!!!!

[Shillelagh]

In all seriousness... you realize that's not how tenses work, yes? Your first example is third person, because Tom is taking the (nonsensical) verb. Your second example is first person- either the speaking is an important figure using the royal we, or it is some sort of hivemind collective.

I ask, because I once met someone who had decided that tenses were additive. As in, the sentence "He told me you were feeling bad today" would be 5th tense, because he (3rd) and you (2nd) added up to five. The idea of indirect statements was apparently alien to him. It got worse- he decided they stacked. "You told me that he thought I was lying when you said she was fat"- 2nd + 3rd + 1st+ 2nd + 3rd = 11th tense.

[Lebrenth]

Shillelagh wrote: Your first example is third person, because Tom is taking the (nonsensical) verb. Your second example is first person- either the speaking is an important figure using the royal we, or it is some sort of hivemind collective.

I think you're mistaking tense for perspective. First-person, second-person, and third-person are perspective. Tense is about the time the event occurs, so either past, present, or future tense. "No tense" would mean no verbs, I guess, so it would sound like Tarzan talking, maybe like "Tom to town, all the way". Unless there's some verb out there that can be used when the tense is unknown... I don't think so though.

[crazybookgal]

Quote: In all seriousness... you realize that's not how tenses work, yes?
yeah i get it-I'm just having fun. note the lol emoticon and the comment on smurfs.

As for the multiperson, if you look at it in a certain way, it isn't first person. It could be first person, but if you look at it as many things thinking at once, it would be more like first persons. but i see what you mean. It's more like multiple things talking in first person. So it would be not multiperson, but multi-first person :D

this of course is all speculation :P

[Shillelagh]

Oop, Lebrenth is right- I meant perspective. I suspect I got the word stuck in my head based on the thread title. I swear I know the difference.

And, yeah, Bookgal, I assumed you were joking. I just thew it in as a sort of disclaimer for a "don't get mad when I analyze this as if you were serioius" type of thing. I thought the additive te... perspective guy was kidding, too. It was an awkward five minutes once I realized that he was dead serious.

[Guest]

You can use anything in the story, for me the most rarest of all, is omnious stories, which causes the reader to read the thoughts of the other characters aswell.

Here is something you can do with the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd person point of view:

I didn't look young? The age crept on to me, older more wizer. They thought I was the mother of the house. It was a slap in my face. The three men were older than me. They can't tell age by voice nor looks.

Young by looks, but age with no water for the skin. My conclusion I look older with short hair and in desperate need of excersize. Once again, this why I am growing my hair, running around in my house and dancing to music.

I caught my sister's attention dancing around. Her thoughts on this was that 'people would see me'. I'll see them right back. ;)

Looking into the history of my family, the likes that they would love archeology would pass by like a summer myst.


As you can see I'm trying to cut out the words, "because, which, just..." replace them with other words or rephrase your story.

[Lebrenth]

Barking_Basenji_Splitpin wrote: You can use anything in the story, for me the most rarest of all, is omnious stories, which causes the reader to read the thoughts of the other characters aswell.

Do you mean omniscient or ominous? From an omniscient point of view, the reader is given more information than a single character could have. It's as though the narrator knows everything. It isn't really that rare. In fact, sometimes an author can't help adding more details than a single character knows when the unknown is particularly fascinating. I recall a short story where the main character continued describing events even after he was blindfolded. It was as if the blindfolding gave him an out of body experience. In that case it was jarring and should have been edited out.

In stories that deliberately use omniscient point of view, it can be very interesting and create a situation for the reader that wouldn't otherwise exist. Even non-fiction can use this. Let us say, for instance, that we have a true story of a bomb squad technician. He could be searching a building for a bomb, all the while thinking it was a prank call that brought him there, and nothing was going to be found. But through omniscient point of view, the reader knows there actually IS a bomb, and it's set on a timer that is getting closer and closer to detonation. All the while, the technician is casually looking around, not believing he was in any real danger. This results in even more suspense for the reader than there would have been from seeing things through the technician's observations.

[Guest]

That is what I like in stories.. but I can't pull it off unless, I don't act myself.... :D

[PopeAlessandrosXVIII]

I got everyone's first posts into the IF Quirer...I hope. If I missed you, please tell me. *Bows* I'd feel terrible if I passed over someone! Please have a look at the IF Quirer, and keep an eye out for next month's IFQ Discussion!