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Ingrothechundyer



Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 484
Location: Wandering the streets of IF since 10/21/2005

Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 2:52 am    Post subject: Upgrade to phpBB 3  

There has been some discussion about upgrading to phpBB 3.

I think the first question would be if Key is in favor of upgrading and if we have someone willing to lead the upgrade process (that person is not me :).

What do we gain by upgrading? What are the disadvantages of upgrading?

I've listed what I've heard so far and will update once more are posted.

PROs:

It's shiny ;)
Many easily adapted applications that have been designed for that platform that cannot be applied to the one we have.
More are still being created
There is feature to warn you if someone replied while you were reading / replying.
It has Report Post/PM Features
It has a much better System Changes (Topic Review, Post Drafts, Quick Reply, Attachments)
It has a Caching system
It also has better searching and new/active/unread ect., posts pages
It can email/print topics
Moderation System Improved to have a moderation queue, Global Moderators, Post Editing Locking, Changing Post Author, Merging posts/topic and User Notes
Embedding other media into posts (A number of attempts at multimedia SGs have failed because it has not been easy to embed sounds or video)
Expanding/Collapsing categories into forum lists. (an alternative to viewing each category as a homepage format) - useful when there are situations where using the flash toolbar is not possible.
An alternative format for mobile users
An automatic welcome PM
...


CONs:

Would require someone to head up the process
Would require quite a bit of time to identify the mods applied and move them over
There are many custom mods that would have to be rebuilt from scratch
Many applications that have been designed for that platform that cannot be applied to the new one.
These applications are getting harder to find.
...
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Thunderbird



Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Posts: 2139
Location: Rising from the ashes

Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 8:15 am    Post subject:  

The Pros, as I understand it, involve many easily adapted applications that have been designed for that platform that cannot be applied to the one we have. Other than that, I'll look into some more pros/cons.
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Ingrothechundyer



Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 484
Location: Wandering the streets of IF since 10/21/2005

Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 1:56 pm    Post subject:  

Thanks TB :)
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D-Lotus



Joined: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 4123
Location: Hollywood, USA

Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 3:59 pm    Post subject:  

What are some examples of those apps?
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Thunderbird



Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Posts: 2139
Location: Rising from the ashes

Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 8:53 pm    Post subject:  

OK, from a debate on the subject:

Quote: Re: Which do you prefer phpbb2 or phpbb3?
by Unknown Bliss » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:00 pm

phpBB 3 by far.

1) Its still supported
2) It has a better style
3) Its more secure
4) It has Sub-forums
4) It has a much better permissions system
5) It has General features overall.
6) Its Banning & Warnings system is more advanced
7) It has Report Post/PM Features
8) The Compatibility is better
9) It has Custom BBcodes
10) It also has a better Polling system
11) And it has a much better System Changes (Topic Review, Post Drafts, Quick Reply, Attatchments)
12) It has a Caching system
13) It also has better searching and new/active/unread ect., posts pages.
14) It has much better forum features like forum passwords, style forum allocation, url redirect forums, subscrition to forums, bookmarks and email/print topics.
15) It has a better UCP managment
16) A decent Private Messaging System.
17) A much more advanced user groups system
18) Moderation System Improved to have a moderation queue, Global Moderators, Post Editing Locking, Changing Post Author, Merging posts/topic and User Notes
19) It has Nice ACP Changes
20) It also has Permission Roles, Bookmarks, Feeds and alot lot more

Now then, on the flip side, I'm thinking it would take a LOT of modding in a less user friendly environment to get this up and running. Also, I've seen a number of statements there that suggested there's a lot of mods built for phpBB2 that we may yet be inclined to want to adopt that may not be useable for phpBB3. It's going to take some more research to reveal the pros and cons in full.
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Chinaren



Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 8878
Location: https://www.NeilHartleyBooks.com

Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 10:36 pm    Post subject:  

The problem with most of the mods done on IF, is that they were custom coded by JNMRCS or Stubby, so they're not even in the general phpBB community.

Of course, there are still a lot of mode around for phpBB2!
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Key



Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 2652
Location: The Royal Palace

Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 10:51 pm    Post subject:  

I'm not opposed to upgrading in principle, but as a practical matter it's probably not worth it. As others have said, it would be a ton of work to do and there are a lot of IF-specific mods (e.g. Favorites, an integrated Inn, a custom Storygames home page, etc.) that we'd be giving up.

If someone really wants to explore this, I'd suggest getting access to a demo PHPBB3 forum, and playing around with it to see what these features really look like. I think we need to understand the Pros and Cons at a pretty detailed level to see if this would be worth it. So for example, things like "It has a better Polling system" or "It has a much better permissions system" aren't really specific enough to say what value those would have to us. What specifically could we do with Polling that we can't do now and how valuable is that? What does it allow us to do with Permissions that we can't do, and how much do we want that?

:-)
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Guest






Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 1:01 am    Post subject:  

I like this forum.... the way it is now... I believe I've never seeen anyother forum like cityofif.
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Ingrothechundyer



Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 484
Location: Wandering the streets of IF since 10/21/2005

Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 2:34 am    Post subject:  

I'm trying to keep the Pro list to Pros that apply to IF so I have some questions on this list.

Thunderbird wrote: 1) Its still supported
I personally don't see the value in this one aside from a security standpoint. Do you think this should make it into our Pro list?

Thunderbird wrote: 2) It has a better style
Since as I understand it the style would remain unchanged I am thinking this one does not make it into out Pro list?

Thunderbird wrote: 3) Its more secure
I guess I question how much security a site like IF needs. If this is a concern it can be added to the Pro list.

Thunderbird wrote: 4) It has Sub-forums
Is this something that would be useful for IF?

Thunderbird wrote: 4) It has a much better permissions system
Given the small size of the active community would this be something useful for IF?

Thunderbird wrote: 5) It has General features overall.
This probably requires more definition.

Thunderbird wrote: 6) Its Banning & Warnings system is more advanced
Do we do Bannings & Warnings?

Thunderbird wrote: 7) It has Report Post/PM Features
I doubt the Report Post would be hugely helpful since the people they are reporting to are also reading them? Added to the Pro list since the PM thing seems like a new feature.

Thunderbird wrote: 8) The Compatibility is better
This one needs to be expounded upon. Compatibility with what?

Thunderbird wrote: 9) It has Custom BBcodes
Is this needed since we have HTML as well?

Thunderbird wrote: 10) It also has a better Polling system
To rehash what Key said, what has changed to make it better?

Thunderbird wrote: 11) And it has a much better System Changes (Topic Review, Post Drafts, Quick Reply, Attatchments)
12) It has a Caching system
13) It also has better searching and new/active/unread ect., posts pages.
Added

Thunderbird wrote: 14) It has much better forum features like forum passwords, style forum allocation, url redirect forums, subscrition to forums, bookmarks and email/print topics.
Is any of this besides the email/print topics useful for IF?

Thunderbird wrote: 15) It has a better UCP managment
I'm going to ask a stupid question here. What is UCP management?

Thunderbird wrote: 16) A decent Private Messaging System.
What is different from our current PM system?

Thunderbird wrote: 17) A much more advanced user groups system
Is this something that we would use?

Thunderbird wrote: 18) Moderation System Improved to have a moderation queue, Global Moderators, Post Editing Locking, Changing Post Author, Merging posts/topic and User Notes
Added to the Pro list but how useful is this for IF?

Thunderbird wrote: 19) It has Nice ACP Changes
Sorry another stupid question. What is ACP?

Thunderbird wrote: 20) It also has Permission Roles, Bookmarks, Feeds and alot lot more
Is any of this useful for IF that we don't currently have?
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Smee



Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 5215
Location: UK

Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 4:20 am    Post subject:  

UCP & ACP are User and Admin control panels.

~

Fundamentally the benefit I see to upgrading is a fairly simple one. When these ideas come up for improvements to the forum the quick answer tends to be ... sure, if you can program it. Which means, more often than not, no.

If we were upgraded, that answer is more likely to be ... sure, if you can link to a reliable mod that does it.

Finding BBcode2 stuff is increasingly difficult, albeit not impossible, but as far as I know there's very little/no development of new stuff for it. Whereas new stuff is appearing for 3 all the time. Something not possible today, could be done tomorrow - meaning we don't have to do it ourselves.

~

My original point : Upgrading now before we add more to the site and make it that much harder to upgrade in the future.

It's never going to be easy to upgrade, but it can be made harder if we continue to develop for this old version ;)

~

As a negative... getting too trigger happy with mods can turn the site into a god-awful heaving mass of crappy 'features' that can destroy the somewhat elegant simplicity we have here.

~

Way forward :

- I agree that a demo is going to have to be made to show how similar we can make an upgraded version. This will clearly display what we lose, and what we gain.

- Lots and lots of testing.

- Then it'll be a matter of getting the user accounts and databases into the demo... and voila.

~

The main reason not to bother would be if we expect the city to die in the next year or two... then I agree, probably not worth the bother. But if we're around in another 10 years, then I suspect it'd be worth it.

Future hindsight goggles on chaps ;)
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Ingrothechundyer



Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 484
Location: Wandering the streets of IF since 10/21/2005

Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 8:28 am    Post subject:  

Smee wrote: UCP & ACP are User and Admin control panels.
:oops: Thanks.

Smee wrote: Future hindsight goggles on chaps ;)
In 10 years we'll probably be having this debate again regarding phpBB 4 :lol:

I think there is a big question with the upgrade in that is anyone willing to lead the project? If no one is willing / able to do it then the upgrade isn't going to happen.
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Amichan



Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 480
Location: RL:Roseboro, NC./ IF: Retuning from a long journey in the land of OFF

Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 8:35 am    Post subject:  

what i could do over the next month when i am able to is try and start a PHP BB3 board and see what i can try to do with some of the modules that are available .. if Key does not object He can send me via email some of the Encoding that is currently used in IF and i can see if any of it can still be used with the php bb3 layouts .. if i find that they do work i can send let Key know and maybe send him or others that are willing to help out any encoding that i find that may be useful or that i have successfully tested .. i dont anticipate this to be a smooth transfer but we can do is once we get a good seamless test board set up one person can take all of the topics and back them up on to a secure area and then try to interface the new coding over what we have .. but i would like to keep a copy of the encoding that we have in place backed up somewhere just in case we have to revert back to the old encoding and work out some bugs in the new encoding. One measure we can use is to make an experimental board on something like proboards .. i would have no probs making the board to use for testing purposes .. I would still Like Key to provide some input on this project though. and if anyone wants in on this idea i can start this experimental board up sometime within the next week or so
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Key



Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 2652
Location: The Royal Palace

Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 10:16 pm    Post subject:  

Kang wrote: what i could do over the next month when i am able to is try and start a PHP BB3 board and see what i can try to do with some of the modules that are available
That seems like a good next step.

Quote: .. if Key does not object He can send me via email some of the Encoding that is currently used in IF and i can see if any of it can still be used with the php bb3 layouts .. if i find that they do work i can send let Key know and maybe send him or others that are willing to help out any encoding that i find that may be useful or that i have successfully tested
None of the mods that we use in the current forum will translate to PHPBB3. There might be similar mods for PHPBB3, or the same functionality might even be included in the standard PHPBB3 code, but the structure of pages in PHPBB2 and PHPBB3 is completely different, so we wouldn't be able to use the same mods.

Just as an FYI, here are the PHPBB2 mods we have in the current forum:Honors in the user profile
A bunch of mods to prevent spammers from registering and posting
Photo album
Link to author's profile when viewing posts
Cash (i.e. fables)
Favorites
Zogby the Fortune Teller
Forum icons
Bob the Apedog
Aligning images left or right with the text in posts
Showing who voted in polls
Moderator pruning controls
Printer-friendly version of posts
Users rank appears in the memberlist
RSS feed
Show the number of topics a user has started
View all posts in a topic
Integrated chat (The Inn)
Custom emoticons
Recent posts link
Custom Storygames home/category page, including IFquirer panel, New topics panel, and Favorite Storygames panel
Custom look and feel
Custom navigation (i.e. top bar with links to IFki, Info, storygame categories, etc)
Quote: .. i dont anticipate this to be a smooth transfer but we can do is once we get a good seamless test board set up one person can take all of the topics and back them up on to a secure area and then try to interface the new coding over what we have .. but i would like to keep a copy of the encoding that we have in place backed up somewhere just in case we have to revert back to the old encoding and work out some bugs in the new encoding.
I wouldn't worry about getting the topics into the new board. Let's start just by getting something where we can see the functionality - what's there and what's not in terms of features.
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Thunderbird



Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Posts: 2139
Location: Rising from the ashes

Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 10:24 pm    Post subject:  

I think, and this is just from my limited viewpoint at the moment, that we could use some of the improvements from v3.

However, to do it right, without destroying a great deal of the wonderful things we already have here (sometimes improvements aren't so very well improved as the programmers believed they were...), what we need to do is develop a thorough understanding of coding, both on the v2 and v3 sides before moving forward into an upgrade at all. We need to understand how to replicate what we're doing here from scratch, rather than being limited to the modularized modding others have developed for phpbb in general.

I have in mind a project for some of us who are interested, to learn the coding of our site inside and out. Only after we've achieved this understanding, do I feel we would be ready for an upgrade.

And a point was made earlier that I agree with... how long will it be before we're discussing an upgrade to v4? Sometimes its best to play things out on the older version until the cutting edge has taken another step.
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HalfEmptyHero



Joined: 16 Feb 2009
Posts: 342
Location: Where rolls the Oregon, and hears no sound

Posted: Sat May 07, 2011 1:18 am    Post subject:  

Thunderbird wrote:
And a point was made earlier that I agree with... how long will it be before we're discussing an upgrade to v4? Sometimes its best to play things out on the older version until the cutting edge has taken another step.

There was about a 5 year interval between phpbb2 and 3, so I don't think it will be here anytime soon. I have been working on learning php lately, I'm just beginning but I have a lot of free time at work and lots of freely available tech books that I can read, so I'm down with the idea of learning it better. As of now, I am pretty proficient in computers/general technologies. So even if I can't do something, I can figure out how to do it fairly easily.

However, I think it would be best to find out what things people want out of If. I think we should interview the community, find out what features they would be interested in on a storygaming site, no matter how crazy or difficult they might be to implement. Then, take all those ideas, discuss what is possible, what isn't possible, throw out the bad ideas and go from there.

I think it is important to find out what we want before doing anything. What is the point in upgrading to phpbb3 for a few mildly better features and nothing more? If we are going to upgrade, we should go all out and actually make the site better than it is now. Otherwise, we should keep it how it is now.

As for the different mods, I figured I'd go ahead and try to find the phpbb3 equivalents of the ones on key's list, I'll post them as I find them.


Key wrote:
Just as an FYI, here are the PHPBB2 mods we have in the current forum:Honors in the user profile
A bunch of mods to prevent spammers from registering and posting
Photo album This one looks promising http://www.phpbb.com/customise/db/mod/phpbb_gallery/
Link to author's profile when viewing posts
Cash (i.e. fables) Ultimate Points Mod http://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=1951935
Favorites
Zogby the Fortune Teller
Forum icons
Bob the Apedog This would probably have to be custom made
Aligning images left or right with the text in posts
Showing who voted in polls
Moderator pruning controls
Printer-friendly version of posts
Users rank appears in the memberlist
RSS feed There are many choices here for phpbb3
Show the number of topics a user has started
View all posts in a topic
Integrated chat (The Inn) mChat http://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=1659365 This chat shows up on the index page, but I am assuming this can be edited
Custom emoticons
Recent posts link
Custom Storygames home/category page, including IFquirer panel, New topics panel, and Favorite Storygames panel
Custom look and feel This will probably have to be completely redone
Custom navigation (i.e. top bar with links to IFki, Info, storygame categories, etc) This goes along with creating the theme
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Ingrothechundyer



Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 484
Location: Wandering the streets of IF since 10/21/2005

Posted: Sat May 07, 2011 9:09 am    Post subject:  

Thunderbird wrote: However, to do it right, without destroying a great deal of the wonderful things we already have here (sometimes improvements aren't so very well improved as the programmers believed they were...), what we need to do is develop a thorough understanding of coding, both on the v2 and v3 sides before moving forward into an upgrade at all. We need to understand how to replicate what we're doing here from scratch, rather than being limited to the modularized modding others have developed for phpbb in general.
You make some very good points here. Personally I would go at it the other way around though. Put together what we have out there that is modular and then start working on putting back features and tweaking existing features to do what we want them to.

I downloaded the code for phpBB 3 and just quickly looking at it the code doesn't appear to be all that different (from the perspective of directly modding the code) then phpBB 2 (which itself doesn't seem all that complicated once you understand how it works). I did not look at the templates themselves as that is outside my area of expertise and I was just taking a quick look around.

Thunderbird wrote: I have in mind a project for some of us who are interested, to learn the coding of our site inside and out. Only after we've achieved this understanding, do I feel we would be ready for an upgrade.
This sounds interesting. My concern with with trying to learn the coding to identify changes is that it's not always clear (to me anyway) what changes would need to carry.

For example I see two mods (in three places) in this code segment.

One is clearly documented as being a mod. One is not but knowing it is a mod you can spot it. The third is not documented.

Code:    $template->assign_vars(array(
      'TOTAL_POSTS' => sprintf($l_total_post_s, $total_posts),
// Topics a user has started MOD, By Manipe (Begin)
      'TOTAL_TOPICS' => sprintf($l_total_topic_s, $total_topics),
// Topics a user has started MOD, By Manipe (End)
      'TOTAL_USERS' => sprintf($l_total_user_s, $total_users),
      'NEWEST_USER' => sprintf($lang['Newest_user'], '<a href="' . append_sid("profile.$phpEx?mode=viewprofile&amp;" . POST_USERS_URL . "=$newest_uid") . '">', $newest_user, '</a>'),

      'FORUM_IMG' => $images['forum'],
      'FORUM_NEW_IMG' => $images['forum_new'],
      'FORUM_LOCKED_IMG' => $images['forum_locked'],

      'L_FORUM' => $lang['Forum'],
      'L_TOPICS' => $lang['Topics'],
      'L_REPLIES' => $lang['Replies'],
      'L_VIEWS' => $lang['Views'],
      'L_POSTS' => $lang['Posts'],
      'L_LASTPOST' => $lang['Last_Post'],
      'L_NO_NEW_POSTS' => $lang['No_new_posts'],
      'L_NEW_POSTS' => $lang['New_posts'],
      'L_NO_NEW_POSTS_LOCKED' => $lang['No_new_posts_locked'],
      'L_NEW_POSTS_LOCKED' => $lang['New_posts_locked'],
      'L_ONLINE_EXPLAIN' => $lang['Online_explain'],

      'L_MODERATOR' => $lang['Moderators'],
      'L_FORUM_LOCKED' => $lang['Forum_is_locked'],
      'L_MARK_FORUMS_READ' => $lang['Mark_all_forums'],

      'U_MARK_READ' => append_sid("index.$phpEx?mark=forums"),

      'CATEGORY_TITLE' => "Storygames Home"
      )
   );


   //
   // Build the Ifquirer section
   //
   $sql = "select forum_id from " . FORUMS_TABLE . " where forum_name = 'IFquirer'";
   if ( !($result = $db->sql_query($sql)) )
   {
      message_die(GENERAL_ERROR, 'Could not find The IFquirer forum', '', __LINE__, __FILE__, $sql);
   }
   if ($db->sql_numrows($result) == 0) {
      $template->assign_vars(array(
         'U_HEADLINES' => "#",
         'L_HEADLINES' => "No IFquirer forum found"
         )
      );
      $db->sql_freeresult($result);
   }
   else
   {
      $row = $db->sql_fetchrow($result);
      $ifquirer_id = $row['forum_id'];
      $template->assign_vars(array(
         'U_HEADLINES' => append_sid("viewforum.$phpEx?" . POST_FORUM_URL . "=$ifquirer_id"),
         'L_HEADLINES' => "The IFquirer"
         )
      );
      $db->sql_freeresult($result);

      $sql = "select t.topic_title, t.topic_id from " . TOPICS_TABLE . " t
            where t.forum_id = '${ifquirer_id}'
            order by t.topic_id desc
            limit 0,5";
      if ( !($result = $db->sql_query($sql)) )
      {
         message_die(GENERAL_ERROR, 'Could not find The IFquirer articles', '', __LINE__, __FILE__, $sql);
      }
      while ($row = $db->sql_fetchrow($result))
      {
         $template->assign_block_vars('headlinerow', array(
            'U_POST' => append_sid("viewtopic.$phpEx?"  . POST_TOPIC_URL . '=' . $row['topic_id']),
            'POST_TITLE' => $row['topic_title']
            )
         );

      }
      $db->sql_freeresult($result);
   }

   //
   // Build the Recent Posts section
   //
    if (isset($ifquirer_id)) {
        $where = " and t.forum_id != '${ifquirer_id}' ";
    } else {
        $where = "";
    }

HalfEmptyHero wrote: However, I think it would be best to find out what things people want out of If. I think we should interview the community, find out what features they would be interested in on a storygaming site, no matter how crazy or difficult they might be to implement. Then, take all those ideas, discuss what is possible, what isn't possible, throw out the bad ideas and go from there.
I agree that finding what people want is a good thing. However if we upgrade personally I would like to see the upgrade finished and the needed features put back / fixed before we start focusing on adding additional features.
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Thunderbird



Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Posts: 2139
Location: Rising from the ashes

Posted: Sat May 07, 2011 2:04 pm    Post subject:  

Yes, undocumented modding always leads to a pain in the arse.

This is the first time I've taken a look at phpbb coding and it is surprisingly graspable from even a beginning C++ modders perspective.

Ok, so what it seem like, to me, that we should be doing is much like what Kang mentioned, starting with phpBB3 from scratch on a working server.

Now, mind, I did not mean that we would ONLY be looking for the mods that are in place here, but rather for an intimate understanding of how the coding works so that we can quickly move beyond the limitations inherant in pre-built mods. Understanding our own mods will become a self-evident matter once we understand what every line of code is 'doing'. Then it is quite easy to enact new modifications of our own design as well as blend in mods that already exist.

I agree that we may wish to start fresh with phpBB3 rather than continuing to adjust the site as it is now. But then again, that's going to mean that great ideas will take far longer to implement as we would first need to recover what we already have. Its a tossup. And its possible that we could really achieve more know-how in working both efforts simultaneously.
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Ingrothechundyer



Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 484
Location: Wandering the streets of IF since 10/21/2005

Posted: Sat May 07, 2011 3:18 pm    Post subject:  

How close are we to a decision on if we want to start looking into upgrading or not?

I am thinking that the first question is if we upgrade:

1) Are we going to have the resources to bring the code modifications back to being as good (or better) then they are on the current site?

2) Are we going to have the resources to test, identify missing features, test, test, test, and test the new site?

~~~

If we are going to upgrade then, as I understand it, Kang is offering to take the templates and see how much work is required to integrate them with phpBB 3. He will need the template folder with all files and images sent to him to see how much work is required to get them working.

*HalfEmptyHero thinks that they will need to be "completely redone"

*Obviously they won't look exactly the same as the current site as there are mods that will have to be ported over but it should be close enough to see if it is going to work or not.
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HalfEmptyHero



Joined: 16 Feb 2009
Posts: 342
Location: Where rolls the Oregon, and hears no sound

Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 6:33 am    Post subject:  

Ingrothechundyer wrote:
If we are going to upgrade then, as I understand it, Kang is offering to take the templates and see how much work is required to integrate them with phpBB 3. He will need the template folder with all files and images sent to him to see how much work is required to get them working.

*HalfEmptyHero thinks that they will need to be "completely redone"

*Obviously they won't look exactly the same as the current site as there are mods that will have to be ported over but it should be close enough to see if it is going to work or not.

From what I read, most people said they had to rewrite their themes from scratch as the code differences from phpbb2 and 3 were too different. There were one or two oddballs that said it was easy though, so who knows.

There are a few things that still need to be considered about the upgrade. The current phpbb version is 3.08 with the 3.09RC1 already out. 3.1 is supposed to be a decent sized change, as it (among other things) adds "hooks" in that allow mods to be installed without modifying any files. I don't know how soon 3.1 is going to be released, but that is something to think about.

Also, does the forum have to be phpbb? The reason I ask is that I have been hearing some good things about mybb. It is supposed to be faster than phpbb, and already has a well established plugins system that phpbb 3.1 is trying to mimic. The theming is supposed to be a lot easier as well. I installed it on my testing server and must admit I was quite impressed with the default features is had.
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Key



Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 2652
Location: The Royal Palace

Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 2:55 pm    Post subject:  

We're getting pretty far into a discussion of how we would upgrade, how hard it would be, etc., but I still haven't heard much about why. I have no doubt that phpbb3, or even MyBB, has features that we don't have, but until someone can say at a very specific level what those features are, we can't even begin to evaluate whether this would be a good idea.

If someone has looked at phpbb3 or anything else and liked something they saw, please say what it is in a way that's very specific, so that everyone can understand the benefit to the community (e.g. not just "better permissions" or "better search" but how it is better, what it allows you to do that the current site doesn't).
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Crunchyfrog



Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 3998

Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:38 am    Post subject:  

From my experience, both from being a user and from being an adminstrator, the advantages of moving to PHPbb3 are:

(Not in any particular order)

An automatic welcome PM
Moderation queue this is particularly useful for controlling spam attacks, and I've seen it put to good use on the Infinite Story site.
Embedding other media into posts (A number of attempts at multimedia SGs have failed because it has not been easy to embed sounds or video)
Expanding/Collapsing categories into forum lists. (an alternative to viewing each category as a homepage format) - useful when there are situations where using the flash toolbar is not possible.
An alternative format for mobile users
More sophisticated way of tracking how many new posts have been viewed by the user, including taking the user to the oldest unread post in the thread (and not always to the first page of the thread) - a forum I used to use back in 2001 was able to do this - I can't understand why it won't work here!
Anti spam mods (although our most recent addition is working extremely well right now!)

Are these features worth the upgrade? Are there any others to add to this list? I don't know.


Do we know yet how many of the things Stubby and Jnmrcs did for City of IF now come automatically with PHPbb3?

Perhaps if we knew what we'd need to re-do versus what we'd gain from PHPbb3 we'd get a better idea of whether it's worth the upgrade.

One thing I heartily agree with though - and that is whatever we do, don't lets make it any more complex than it is now. There is an elegance about the simple look and feel which we should try not to lose.
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HalfEmptyHero



Joined: 16 Feb 2009
Posts: 342
Location: Where rolls the Oregon, and hears no sound

Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 6:45 am    Post subject:  

In a default mybb installation, you have quick reply and the ability to quote multiple posts at the same time. phpbb3 also has quick reply, but doesn't have multiquote. They both have the ability to add custom bbcode, however the one for mybb is a lot more powerful. mybb also comes with a calendar where you can add events. I believe both supports child forums, however I wasn't able to figure out how to do it in phpbb3.

In my opinion, it all comes down to what the community wants, as without a community a forum is completely useless. That's why I said we need to find out what everyone wants before upgrading. Does the forum need to be upgraded? It has worked for a few years so obviously not. However would it be beneficial to upgrade, both to improve the experience of the current members and to hopefully bring in new members? Possibly. After all, people are attracted to shiny things.
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Ingrothechundyer



Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 484
Location: Wandering the streets of IF since 10/21/2005

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 7:09 am    Post subject:  

Key wrote: We're getting pretty far into a discussion of how we would upgrade, how hard it would be, etc., but I still haven't heard much about why. I have no doubt that phpbb3, or even MyBB, has features that we don't have, but until someone can say at a very specific level what those features are, we can't even begin to evaluate whether this would be a good idea.

If someone has looked at phpbb3 or anything else and liked something they saw, please say what it is in a way that's very specific, so that everyone can understand the benefit to the community (e.g. not just "better permissions" or "better search" but how it is better, what it allows you to do that the current site doesn't).

Is there any more feedback on this?

Crunchyfrog wrote: An automatic welcome PM
This could also be added to the existing site (probably faster then upgrading)


Crunchyfrog wrote: More sophisticated way of tracking how many new posts have been viewed by the user, including taking the user to the oldest unread post in the thread (and not always to the first page of the thread) - a forum I used to use back in 2001 was able to do this - I can't understand why it won't work here!

Can you expound on this? While the session tracking has issue the last new post icon does take me to the first unread post (as of the start of the session) and not to the first post in the thread (unless the first post *is*) the new post.

Crunchyfrog wrote: Do we know yet how many of the things Stubby and Jnmrcs did for City of IF now come automatically with PHPbb3?
Since I don't think we know what all they did I don't think we know how much comes with phpBB3
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Thunderbird



Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Posts: 2139
Location: Rising from the ashes

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 7:18 pm    Post subject:  

I'm of the solid opinion by now that a phpbb3 upgrade should be held off for a bit. It would be helpful for those of us working on the programming to fully understand the coding involved in php at all before even daring to port so many of the great personalized modding we already have here, let alone how to work it along with the Java inserts.

And one thing about older codes - its usually a bit easier to further mod. So while I think this is something for us to revisit down the road, I think we should stay in our current version for now. This allows us to grow some great modding now rather than having to spend so much time on backpedalling through what we already have before we can get back to cutting edge projects.

Once our programmer's circle has completed a lot of the projects on the table, php coding will be far more understood and it will be easier for us to pinpoint how to port what we have to a phpbb3 base.
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HalfEmptyHero



Joined: 16 Feb 2009
Posts: 342
Location: Where rolls the Oregon, and hears no sound

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:11 am    Post subject:  

While I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other, child forums would be nice.
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