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Ingrothechundyer



Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 484
Location: Wandering the streets of IF since 10/21/2005

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 7:43 am    Post subject: Request for feedback (New Chapter Mod)  

D had a suggestion regarding a list of new chapters.

D-Lotus wrote: I was wondering whether it is possible to have a list-- similar to the fav. storygames or new topics lists-- of all the storygames which have had a new chapter added to them in the past week or two. A recent chapters list. It'd make it easier for readers to figure out which stories are actual and are being updated.

It's probably something that would have to be done manually, say by the mayor, after receiving private notification from the author.

It was well received and I have been working towards getting it implemented. Before the actual suggestion can be implemented we need to have a way to designate new chapters.

That is what this feature is for.

All formatting issues not explicitly addressed as a change are a result of my copying the HTML then modifying it locally and will not reflect on the new layout.

Anything listed below is not set in stone and is up for discussion. All feedback is welcome :D

~~~

To be eligible to be posted as a new chapter, or edit to being a new chapter, the reply *must* meet all of the following criteria
The topic must be posted in a forum that allows chapters to be posted.
The topic must start with a post designated as a chapter or be a new topic (prologs are allowed).
The message must belong to the author of the topic.
As long as a post meets the criteria outlined above the author and members with permission to edit the post may change the comment type.

~~~

First up: We need to change the way that the comment type is specified. My initial thought is a dropdown that has all legal comment types in it. My reasoning for not going with a checkbox is that I think that in the future we might want to add more comment types and it will be easier if we don't have to change the interface every time we add a new comment type.

Only comment types that can be used will appear in this dropdown. (For example "Post a new Chapter" won't be an option if you are replying to a topic you didn't start).

We can change if people feel a checkbox would be better.


Current


With the drop down added.

The "Post a new Chapter" option is selected by default when starting a new topic in a forum that allows chapters. The user can change it to "Post a new Message" if they feel a need to do so (Announcements, Two word at a time stories, etc...).

~~~

Next up is TBird's suggestion about the "New Chapter" button.

Thunderbird wrote: Key wrote: I'm not sure that a coded solution is going to work any better than what we have. Some authors are not going to know or remember to set each new chapter post as a new chapter, just like some readers don't know or remember the chapter titles.

However, I'd be happy to be proved wrong on this, and if Ingro wants to play around with this, I'm happy to open up the code.

:-)

What Vishal said seems like a good solution to 'the author remembering' problem. If there was a Post New Chapter button right alongside the Reply button that basically did the same thing but marked that post as a new chapter in the database, we'd have our answer. If the button could be filtered to only appear for the user that began the thread, it'd be even better.

The "New Chapter" button would open the reply window with the "Post a new Chapter" option selected.

You will only see it if you are allowed to post a new chapter. (For example you won't see it if you didn't start the topic).

Obviously I am not an artist and someone else should probably do the actual button ;)

Current


With the "New Chapter" button added.





Current


With the "New Chapter" button added.

~~~

Lastly in order to make finding the chapters easier and help with spotting new users that haven't figured out how to use the feature chapters have a distinctive header.


Current.


With a distinctive header
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Smee



Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 5215
Location: UK

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 7:51 am    Post subject:  

I like it. :)
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Vishal Muralidharan



Joined: 24 Aug 2010
Posts: 864
Location: City Of IF!

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 7:53 am    Post subject:  

:clap: :tu2:
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HalfEmptyHero



Joined: 16 Feb 2009
Posts: 342
Location: Where rolls the Oregon, and hears no sound

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 8:09 am    Post subject:  

Sounds good to me.
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Crunchyfrog



Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 3998

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 10:04 am    Post subject:  

I think the Post New Chapter button is the way to go.
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D-Lotus



Joined: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 4123
Location: Hollywood, USA

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 10:22 am    Post subject:  

I agree with CF. The New chapter button is less difficult to miss. And I LOVE the header! :-D

Great work, Ingro.
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Thunderbird



Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Posts: 2139
Location: Rising from the ashes

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 10:33 am    Post subject:  

Perfect combination of all requests and ideas come together for the concept. Very well done Ingro!
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Amichan



Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 480
Location: RL:Roseboro, NC./ IF: Retuning from a long journey in the land of OFF

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 11:11 am    Post subject:  

I totally agree with the concept
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Key



Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 2619
Location: The Royal Palace

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 3:00 pm    Post subject:  

Hi Ingro,

Thanks a lot for putting this all together. It looks great, and I'm excited about the feature. However, I have to disagree with the consensus about the "New chapter" button, I think it adds complexity which is not really necessary.

Just to make sure we all understand, in the current system you post new topics from the forum page using the Post button:


and you post replies from each topic page using the Reply button:


From what you show here, it sounds like you're proposing to add a "New chapter" button to the topic page, but not to the forum page. So if a user had a storygame in a single topic they would be clicking the "New chapter" button, but if they had a storygame in its own forum, they wouldn't click the "New chapter" button (or it wouldn't be there?) and instead they'd click the "Post" button on the main forum page? Plus when you click the "New chapter" button, all you're really doing is setting the default; you could click that button and then set the drop-down to not be a new chapter, which seems kind of contradictory.

Basically, we've currently got different buttons to do Post and Reply, and now we're adding another button that called "New Chapter", which is sometimes a Post and sometimes a Reply. I think it's kind of confusing.

Anyway I think we don't need it, as long as we're smart about defaulting the drop-down menu. In a single-storygame forum, any new topic would be a "new chapter" by default, and in a storygame within a single topic, any new post by the topic author would be a "new chapter" by default. The owner of the post can always change the setting, either at the time of the post or later. I think at least we should start with a simpler solution like this, and then if people are having trouble with it or not using the feature well, we can think about adding extra buttons. But in general, I like to keep the interface clean and the actions as clear as possible.

Also, I thought a big part of the reason for this feature was to make it easier for readers to identify when a storygame had a new chapter. How would that work? Would there be a list of new chapters somewhere? Or would that just be done with the modified header?
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Ingrothechundyer



Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 484
Location: Wandering the streets of IF since 10/21/2005

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 3:25 pm    Post subject:  

Key wrote: Hi Ingro,

Thanks a lot for putting this all together. It looks great, and I'm excited about the feature. However, I have to disagree with the consensus about the "New chapter" button, I think it adds complexity which is not really necessary.

Just to make sure we all understand, in the current system you post new topics from the forum page using the Post button:


and you post replies from each topic page using the Reply button:


From what you show here, it sounds like you're proposing to add a "New chapter" button to the topic page, but not to the forum page.
That is correct. On the forum page it seems like if you post defaulting to a new chapter will almost always be the correct choice.

Key wrote: So if a user had a storygame in a single topic they would be clicking the "New chapter" button, but if they had a storygame in its own forum, they wouldn't click the "New chapter" button (or it wouldn't be there?) and instead they'd click the "Post" button on the main forum page?
Correct.

Key wrote: Plus when you click the "New chapter" button, all you're really doing is setting the default; you could click that button and then set the drop-down to not be a new chapter, which seems kind of contradictory.
Correct. This can easily be changed if you feel it would make more sense when adding a chapter to not allow it to be changed based on which button was clicked.

Key wrote: Basically, we've currently got different buttons to do Post and Reply, and now we're adding another button that called "New Chapter", which is sometimes a Post and sometimes a Reply. I think it's kind of confusing.

Anyway I think we don't need it, as long as we're smart about defaulting the drop-down menu. In a single-storygame forum, any new topic would be a "new chapter" by default, and in a storygame within a single topic, any new post by the topic author would be a "new chapter" by default. The owner of the post can always change the setting, either at the time of the post or later. I think at least we should start with a simpler solution like this, and then if people are having trouble with it or not using the feature well, we can think about adding extra buttons. But in general, I like to keep the interface clean and the actions as clear as possible.
I don't mind doing it that way (it makes the project simpler).

I think the thought behind the button is that once a person is replying they aren't always going to remember to change to post type to a Message instead of a chapter so you end up with stuff in the "New Chapters" list that shouldn't be there. If they start with the correct button then you end up with what you need.

It's not a huge deal to add in later if we try it without the button and then later feel that we need it.

Key wrote: Also, I thought a big part of the reason for this feature was to make it easier for readers to identify when a storygame had a new chapter. How would that work? Would there be a list of new chapters somewhere? Or would that just be done with the modified header?
If I remember correctly the original proposal was to add a list of new chapters somewhere. I am planing on looking into how best to show the new chapter lists once the actual marking of chapters is done.
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Ingrothechundyer



Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 484
Location: Wandering the streets of IF since 10/21/2005

Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 2:19 am    Post subject: Re: Request for feedback (New Chapter Mod)  

Thank you for all the positive feedback (and also the concern about the complexity of the buttons) :)

Here is the revised proposal with the buttons dropped.

~~~

D had a suggestion regarding a list of new chapters.

D-Lotus wrote: I was wondering whether it is possible to have a list-- similar to the fav. storygames or new topics lists-- of all the storygames which have had a new chapter added to them in the past week or two. A recent chapters list. It'd make it easier for readers to figure out which stories are actual and are being updated.

It's probably something that would have to be done manually, say by the mayor, after receiving private notification from the author.

It was well received and I have been working towards getting it implemented. Before the actual suggestion can be implemented we need to have a way to designate new chapters.

That is what this feature is for.

All formatting issues not explicitly addressed as a change are a result of my copying the HTML then modifying it locally and will not reflect on the new layout.

Anything listed below is not set in stone and is up for discussion. All feedback is welcome :D

~~~

To be eligible to be posted as a new chapter, or edit to being a new chapter, the reply *must* meet all of the following criteria
The topic must be posted in a forum that allows chapters to be posted.
The topic must start with a post designated as a chapter or be a new topic (prologs are allowed).
The message must belong to the author of the topic.
As long as a post meets the criteria outlined above the author and members with permission to edit the post may change the comment type.

~~~

First up: We need to change the way that the comment type is specified. My initial thought is a dropdown that has all legal comment types in it. My reasoning for not going with a checkbox is that I think that in the future we might want to add more comment types and it will be easier if we don't have to change the interface every time we add a new comment type.

Only comment types that can be used will appear in this dropdown. (For example "Post a new Chapter" won't be an option if you are replying to a topic you didn't start).

We can change if people feel a checkbox would be better.


Current


With the drop down added.

The "Post a new Chapter" option is selected by default when starting a new topic in a forum that allows chapters and when replying to a topic where the author started the topic and the topic allows chapters. The user can change it to "Post a new Message" if they feel a need to do so (Announcements, Two word at a time stories, normal replies, etc...).

~~~

Lastly in order to make finding the chapters easier and help with spotting new users that haven't figured out how to use the feature chapters have a distinctive header.


Current.


With a distinctive header
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Crunchyfrog



Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 3998

Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 2:35 am    Post subject:  

That makes sense, and I think the heading highlight is a good idea.

One comment:

Quote: The "Post a new Chapter" option is selected by default when starting a new topic in a forum that allows chapters and when replying to a topic where the author started the topic and the topic allows chapters. The user can change it to "Post a new Message" if they feel a need to do so (Announcements, Two word at a time stories, normal replies, etc...).

Authors post more reply messages in their storygame threads than chapters. This means that they will need to remember to change the dropdown to 'post a new message'. This may result in various reply messages being flagged as new chapters that will require clean up.

Is it possible to default to 'Post a new Message' for all Replies to topics started in forums that allows chapters if it is not the first post of a new thread? That way the onus is on the author to highlight their new chapter.

A further question - if an author does for any reason 'get it wrong' - can the author and/or a moderator correct the message status (from message to chapter or vice versa) if needed?
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Ingrothechundyer



Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 484
Location: Wandering the streets of IF since 10/21/2005

Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 2:41 am    Post subject:  

Crunchyfrog wrote: Quote: The "Post a new Chapter" option is selected by default when starting a new topic in a forum that allows chapters and when replying to a topic where the author started the topic and the topic allows chapters. The user can change it to "Post a new Message" if they feel a need to do so (Announcements, Two word at a time stories, normal replies, etc...).

Is it possible to default to 'Post a new Message' for all Replies to topics started in forums that allows chapters if it is not the first post of a new thread? That way the onus is on the author to highlight their new chapter.
Authors post more reply messages in their storygame threads than chapters. This means that they will need to remember to change the dropdown to 'post a new message'. This may result in various reply messages being flagged as new chapters that will require clean up.[/quote]

I will change this if Key agrees (it was his suggestion).

Key wrote: Anyway I think we don't need it, as long as we're smart about defaulting the drop-down menu. In a single-storygame forum, any new topic would be a "new chapter" by default, and in a storygame within a single topic, any new post by the topic author would be a "new chapter" by default


Crunchyfrog wrote: A further question - if an author does for any reason 'get it wrong' - can the author and/or a moderator correct the message status (from message to chapter or vice versa) if needed?
Yes assuming the 'correct' option is a legal post type. For example the moderator can't mark their reply a chapter if the topic author is someone different.
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Thunderbird



Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Posts: 2139
Location: Rising from the ashes

Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 8:35 pm    Post subject:  

I'm still a bit partial to the Post New Chapter button. But if it would simplify - thus allow things to run more smoothly - then it wouldn't be entirely necessary, as has been pointed out. And the way its coming together as fixable on an edit is excellent!
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Ingrothechundyer



Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 484
Location: Wandering the streets of IF since 10/21/2005

Posted: Sat May 21, 2011 6:49 pm    Post subject:  

Out of curiosity do new feature threads go in the Hall of Debate now?
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Thunderbird



Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Posts: 2139
Location: Rising from the ashes

Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 4:51 pm    Post subject:  

The open forum should suffice for that still
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Ingrothechundyer



Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 484
Location: Wandering the streets of IF since 10/21/2005

Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 12:34 pm    Post subject:  

Ok this is now up. The the questions and requests for modifications begin... :smile:
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Crunchyfrog



Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 3998

Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 5:59 am    Post subject:  

Quote: Ingrothechundyer wrote: Crunchyfrog wrote: Quote: The "Post a new Chapter" option is selected by default when starting a new topic in a forum that allows chapters and when replying to a topic where the author started the topic and the topic allows chapters. The user can change it to "Post a new Message" if they feel a need to do so (Announcements, Two word at a time stories, normal replies, etc...).

Is it possible to default to 'Post a new Message' for all Replies to topics started in forums that allows chapters if it is not the first post of a new thread? That way the onus is on the author to highlight their new chapter.
Authors post more reply messages in their storygame threads than chapters. This means that they will need to remember to change the dropdown to 'post a new message'. This may result in various reply messages being flagged as new chapters that will require clean up.

I will change this if Key agrees (it was his suggestion).

Key wrote: Anyway I think we don't need it, as long as we're smart about defaulting the drop-down menu. In a single-storygame forum, any new topic would be a "new chapter" by default, and in a storygame within a single topic, any new post by the topic author would be a "new chapter" by default

I'm seeing a lot of 'new chapters' appearing that are not 'new chapters' and are just replies by the topic starter.

I think perhaps this one should be put to the vote? :)
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HalfEmptyHero



Joined: 16 Feb 2009
Posts: 342
Location: Where rolls the Oregon, and hears no sound

Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 12:20 pm    Post subject:  

I agree. By default is should be new message.
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Ingrothechundyer



Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 484
Location: Wandering the streets of IF since 10/21/2005

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:42 am    Post subject:  

Crunchyfrog wrote: Quote: Ingrothechundyer wrote: Crunchyfrog wrote: Quote: The "Post a new Chapter" option is selected by default when starting a new topic in a forum that allows chapters and when replying to a topic where the author started the topic and the topic allows chapters. The user can change it to "Post a new Message" if they feel a need to do so (Announcements, Two word at a time stories, normal replies, etc...).

Is it possible to default to 'Post a new Message' for all Replies to topics started in forums that allows chapters if it is not the first post of a new thread? That way the onus is on the author to highlight their new chapter.
Authors post more reply messages in their storygame threads than chapters. This means that they will need to remember to change the dropdown to 'post a new message'. This may result in various reply messages being flagged as new chapters that will require clean up.

I will change this if Key agrees (it was his suggestion).

Key wrote: Anyway I think we don't need it, as long as we're smart about defaulting the drop-down menu. In a single-storygame forum, any new topic would be a "new chapter" by default, and in a storygame within a single topic, any new post by the topic author would be a "new chapter" by default

I'm seeing a lot of 'new chapters' appearing that are not 'new chapters' and are just replies by the topic starter.

I think perhaps this one should be put to the vote? :)
HalfEmptyHero wrote:
I agree. By default is should be new message.

I've put up the poll as requested.

I've been thinking about trying to put in some javascript that looks at the length and asks the author if they are sure if the length is odd for the option they selected.

For example I see that a chapter should be at least 1000 words so if the user is trying to post a short chapter ask them if they meant to post a reply instead.
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Thunderbird



Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Posts: 2139
Location: Rising from the ashes

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:29 pm    Post subject:  

That would be perfect, defaulting as new reply unless so large it sends up a warning that the author may have wished to make it a chapter... great thinking ingro!
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Ingrothechundyer



Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 484
Location: Wandering the streets of IF since 10/21/2005

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:01 pm    Post subject:  

Ok lets see if the javascript helps solve the problem or if we still need to look at something else to help :-D
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Shillelagh



Joined: 11 Mar 2010
Posts: 398
Location: Kansas

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:54 pm    Post subject:  

Can we still set the default to be 'new message' instead of 'new chapter'? I enjoy making a lot of comments in the threads that house my SG chapters, and it'll be pretty inevitable that I'll slip up and post a reaction comment as a new chapter by mistake. I almost did that a few minutes ago, and I'm sure it'll happen again. I'd rather forget to mark a new chapter, and need to edit it, than I would mark some irrelevant comment as a new chapter.
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Chinaren



Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 8791
Location: http://www.NeilHartleyBooks.com

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:30 am    Post subject:  

Ingro wrote:
I've been thinking about trying to put in some javascript that looks at the length and asks the author if they are sure if the length is odd for the option they selected.

For example I see that a chapter should be at least 1000 words so if the user is trying to post a short chapter ask them if they meant to post a reply instead.

This is actually very annoying if the default is set to New Chapter. The comment - post ratio is probably four to one, probably more even, so that means people are going to forget and get this popup whenever they make comments.

Also the popup box is also confusing. I press cancel to make it a non-chapter, but in fact that makes it a chapter! :-o
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Ingrothechundyer



Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 484
Location: Wandering the streets of IF since 10/21/2005

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:37 am    Post subject:  

Chinaren wrote: Ingro wrote:
I've been thinking about trying to put in some javascript that looks at the length and asks the author if they are sure if the length is odd for the option they selected.

For example I see that a chapter should be at least 1000 words so if the user is trying to post a short chapter ask them if they meant to post a reply instead.

This is actually very annoying if the default is set to New Chapter. The comment - post ratio is probably four to one, probably more even, so that means people are going to forget and get this popup whenever they make comments.

Also the popup box is also confusing. I press cancel to make it a non-chapter, but in fact that makes it a chapter! :-o

I've asked Key to review the suggestions about changing the default reply type.

On the popup I can change it if needed. My RL experience that a lot of people just hit OK without reading (or thinking) and that if OK is what they probably meant to do things get done right more often.

Unfortunately searching around shows that with JavaScript it is apparently difficult to do anything other then an OK/Cancel box :(

My preference would have been a No/Yes box with No being where OK is now since that is still where people click. Keep in mind that *most* of the time when you get this popup you didn't actually intend to post a chapter.

If we change the default reply type the resulting popup will make more sense.
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Shillelagh



Joined: 11 Mar 2010
Posts: 398
Location: Kansas

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:09 pm    Post subject:  

Honestly, my impression on a pop-up is to hit "cancel" to make it go away, and manually make the changes it requested myself. If I hadn't read C-ren's post, I would have made my message comment a new chapter by accident. Hitting okay to make it a new message is just... weird. In my mind, "OK=continue with input" and "Cancel=do not post, fix input".

I cannot use enough words to stress how much I would rather have 'post new message' as the default option. Maybe we could switch when the pop-up triggers? If the post is over 800 words, a pop-up asks if we would rather have it marked as a new chapter instead of a new message?
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Chinaren



Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 8791
Location: http://www.NeilHartleyBooks.com

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:14 pm    Post subject:  

Shillelagh wrote: Honestly, my impression on a pop-up is to hit "cancel" to make it go away, and manually make the changes it requested myself. If I hadn't read C-ren's post, I would have made my message comment a new chapter by accident. Hitting okay to make it a new message is just... weird. In my mind, "OK=continue with input" and "Cancel=do not post, fix input".

I cannot use enough words to stress how much I would rather have 'post new message' as the default option. Maybe we could switch when the pop-up triggers? If the post is over 800 words, a pop-up asks if we would rather have it marked as a new chapter instead of a new message?

I totally f5 this.

I also hit cancel by default (if it's a message I'm posting). People* tend to not read the text in these things properly. Hence I've posted several chapters by accident which aren't. I un-chaptered these once I realized, but people won't always do this.

If you look at the new chapters area it's full of non-chapters.


*Me.
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Key



Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 2619
Location: The Royal Palace

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:21 am    Post subject:  

Based on this feedback, I agree that we should change the default to be new message.

Other things we could do:

- Add a "new chapter" button next to the Reply button for authors. I was not in favor of this before, but given this feedback it might solve the problem we're running into.
- Remove the drop-down menu "This post is a new Message" when there is only one option in the menu. Having it appear only when an author is posting in their own storygame may give them a clue that there's a choice to be made here, as opposed to people getting used to seeing it there for every posting.

I don't think adding a popup is a good idea. As others have said, they tend to be dismissed without reading, and in general it's better to solve these kinds of problems by reducing complexity for the user rather than adding things.
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Ingrothechundyer



Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 484
Location: Wandering the streets of IF since 10/21/2005

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:39 pm    Post subject:  

Key wrote: Based on this feedback, I agree that we should change the default to be new message.

Other things we could do:

- Add a "new chapter" button next to the Reply button for authors. I was not in favor of this before, but given this feedback it might solve the problem we're running into.
- Remove the drop-down menu "This post is a new Message" when there is only one option in the menu. Having it appear only when an author is posting in their own storygame may give them a clue that there's a choice to be made here, as opposed to people getting used to seeing it there for every posting.

I don't think adding a popup is a good idea. As others have said, they tend to be dismissed without reading, and in general it's better to solve these kinds of problems by reducing complexity for the user rather than adding things.

Done.

Lets see how this works o-)
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